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LightbulbNeil
57 posts

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  #3346264 24-Feb-2025 10:00
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timmmay:

 

EgorNZ:

 

I'm not sure how significant the difference in inverter efficiency is. But I would've thought 6kW is undersized for 9.2kW of panels.

 

Get as many panels as will fit on your roof would be my advice.

 

Assume you've seen this thread, the Shelly relays aren't suitable for driving a HWC directly:

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=73&topicid=304656&page_no=2#3216750

 

 

6kw with 6kw peak output and I think it can go a little higher, according to the specs. The question is around ROI mostly - would spending another $1600 on a larger inverter be worthwhile given the additional 2kw peak generation that will happen a couple of hours per day when the weather is perfect. Given the weather in Wellington isn't usually perfect, though we're having a great run at the moment, I suspect it would probably work ok.

 

Thanks for pointing out the Shelly issue, a contactor seems essential. That puts the price up quite a bit, $300 ish instead of $100 ish. I wonder if I'd be better off just using the digital timer I have there now, even though there's no HA control.

 

 

 

 

It would seem to me , that the extra money spent on a larger inverter would take around 6 years or so to pay off with generation. I wanted extra panels for my system at the time, but was limited in the strings. So have the panel matching the inverter. Another 2-3kw of panels would make the biggest difference in winter for us. Our system does the nice curve on a perfect day, but with more panels, would then have a flat line for a while, which is fine also.

 

The most important aspect, is it helping out and doing what you are expecting with a power bill reduction. 


fastbike
212 posts

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  #3346270 24-Feb-2025 10:16
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timmmay:

 

fastbike:

 

Depending on the element size I would use the Shelley to operate a contactor. It may be rated at 16A but the wiring inside is pretty marginal for bigger loads.

 

 

Is a contactor basically a heavy duty relay, so the Shelley only switches a very small load? We have a timer on the hot water cylinder now, I suspect we might already have a contactor on there too - though it's 10 - 15 years old its apparently still working fine.

 

 

Yes use something like this. Your solar installer can help out.
https://hager.com/nz/products/product-information/esc125-contactor-25a-1no-230v

 

 





Otautahi Christchurch


timmmay
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  #3346271 24-Feb-2025 10:28
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EgorNZ:

 

Have you validated that "couple of hours per day" against your potential insolation in NIWA SolarView? Then you can estimate what that extra power might be worth.

 

Bearing in mind the 5kW export cap means you won't get any extra generation from a bigger inverter unless you're also able to consume the extra energy at the right time. Without a battery or a smart diverter, that might be unlikely.

 

 

I just had a look at Solarview, but it's not the simplest system to understand.

 

In summer we have the heat pump cooling from 1pm to 6pm on sunny days, as the house gets pretty warm. I could bring that forward to 11am or so and use some of the generation. We can also schedule dishwasher, schedule hot water with home assistant, so I think we could probably use the peak production to some degree. I just don't know how much we'd lose with the smaller inverter.

 

Peak output is 6.6kw, typo earlier.


timmmay
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  #3346272 24-Feb-2025 10:32
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LightbulbNeil:

 

It would seem to me , that the extra money spent on a larger inverter would take around 6 years or so to pay off with generation. I wanted extra panels for my system at the time, but was limited in the strings. So have the panel matching the inverter. Another 2-3kw of panels would make the biggest difference in winter for us. Our system does the nice curve on a perfect day, but with more panels, would then have a flat line for a while, which is fine also.

 

The most important aspect, is it helping out and doing what you are expecting with a power bill reduction. 

 

 

How did you work that out? 6 years is a long payback period.

 

I reckon considering the extra panels as helping for winter and lower light conditions might be more important than additional peak production.


EgorNZ
50 posts

Geek


  #3346276 24-Feb-2025 10:41
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timmmay:

 

I just had a look at Solarview, but it's not the simplest system to understand.

 

In summer we have the heat pump cooling from 1pm to 6pm on sunny days, as the house gets pretty warm. I could bring that forward to 11am or so and use some of the generation. We can also schedule dishwasher, schedule hot water with home assistant, so I think we could probably use the peak production to some degree. I just don't know how much we'd lose with the smaller inverter.

 

Peak output is 6.6kw, typo earlier.

 

 

If you're regularly running the HVAC at midday that will definitely help to maximise production. In theory the larger inverter could permit you to do that at little or no "cost" for some of the day, whereas with the smaller inverter you'd always be subtracting from export earnings.

 

If you plug your details into SolarView and share the image, we can try to interpret it together.


LightbulbNeil
57 posts

Master Geek


  #3346280 24-Feb-2025 10:53
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timmmay:

 

LightbulbNeil:

 

It would seem to me , that the extra money spent on a larger inverter would take around 6 years or so to pay off with generation. I wanted extra panels for my system at the time, but was limited in the strings. So have the panel matching the inverter. Another 2-3kw of panels would make the biggest difference in winter for us. Our system does the nice curve on a perfect day, but with more panels, would then have a flat line for a while, which is fine also.

 

The most important aspect, is it helping out and doing what you are expecting with a power bill reduction. 

 

 

How did you work that out? 6 years is a long payback period.

 

I reckon considering the extra panels as helping for winter and lower light conditions might be more important than additional peak production.

 

 

 

 

$1600 is buying about 6000 kWh of power.  To get an average of 2kWh a day power is 3000 days. so makes it almost 8 years. But in summer may get 4kWh more, so an average will make it about a 6 year payback. The winter is down, as it will not get to it's full potential anyway.   $1600 is about 1/2 a years total electrical usage for a couple or small family.

 

Yes , more panels especially for winter is the biggest advantage. So if you were to spend the extra money, more panels makes more sense than a larger inverter. 


dantheperson
174 posts

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  #3346310 24-Feb-2025 12:37
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I thought 'gary does solar' summary of oversizing was quite good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y2dJ8S6zDU

wrt diverter vs timer vs on/off automation, bear in mind a typical days production looks very up and down, prior to getting solar i was expecting production levels to be much less erratic.  If you switch a large load on when there is export, you might find you are pulling allot more grid power than you expect, unless you can cycle that load on and off with the clouds (which is what a diverter is doing very rapidly)

 

e.g. 

 



A curve like this is quite rare


dantheperson
174 posts

Master Geek


  #3346313 24-Feb-2025 12:45
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And those graphs are showing 5 minute averages.  Within each 5 minute window the production is going up and down allot.


fastbike
212 posts

Master Geek


  #3346315 24-Feb-2025 12:51
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dantheperson:

 


A curve like this is quite rare

 

 

Agreed, here's yesterday's (11.8kWp, 10kW inverter) in Christchurch

 

We ended up importing a bit during the day due to some discretionary loads -ouch.





Otautahi Christchurch


HarmLessSolutions
969 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  #3346328 24-Feb-2025 13:43
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dantheperson:

 


A curve like this is quite rare

 

 

They crop up from time to time. The trick is to keep that curve complete when they do occur against the challenges presented by phase caps, excess grid voltages and growing shade trees.

 

9.5kW panels into 8.2kW single phase inverter:

 

 

 

Also why do so many people struggle with 'a lot' vs alot (no such word) vs 'allot' (meaning provide or apportion e.g allotment)?





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


timmmay
20574 posts

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  #3346339 24-Feb-2025 14:14
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Interesting, thanks all. The youtube video from Gary was interesting too. Thanks also to @EgorNZ who has done an analysis of NIWA Solar View for me, which suggests the 6kw inverter will be sufficient most of the time.

 

We'll have 14 panels pointing north and 9 panels pointing west, so that will reduce the peak and extend it somewhat. Our Sig Energy inverter supports DC coupled batteries, i.e. on the DC side of the inverter, so if we do find we're losing a lot of peak generation we can buy a battery and soak some of that up.

 

All in all I think that the 6kw inverter, 6.6kw peak, with a 9kw array should work fine for us. Thanks all for your thoughts :)


prob
225 posts

Master Geek


  #3346341 24-Feb-2025 14:17
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timmmay:

 

EgorNZ:

 

I'm not sure how significant the difference in inverter efficiency is. But I would've thought 6kW is undersized for 9.2kW of panels.

 

Get as many panels as will fit on your roof would be my advice.

 

Assume you've seen this thread, the Shelly relays aren't suitable for driving a HWC directly:

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=73&topicid=304656&page_no=2#3216750

 

 

6kw with 6.6kw peak output and I think it can go a little higher, according to the specs. The question is around ROI mostly - would spending another $1600 on a larger inverter be worthwhile given the additional 2kw peak generation that will happen a couple of hours per day when the weather is perfect. Given the weather in Wellington isn't usually perfect, though we're having a great run at the moment, I suspect it would probably work ok.

 

Thanks for pointing out the Shelly issue, a contactor seems essential. That puts the price up quite a bit, $300 ish instead of $100 ish. I wonder if I'd be better off just using the digital timer I have there now, even though there's no HA control.

 

 

See my thread where I installed the Snieder / PDL Bluetooth / ZigBee  controller. 

 

https://eurotechnz.co.nz/products/bluetooth-hot-water-cylinder-control-kit

 

I still using the app / Buetooth but plan to move  to ZigBee once our solar is installed so I can toggle it off and on during the day.

 

Difficult to measure hot water temperature, but I did put a temperature sensor on the outlet pipe which is probably a rough approximation of the temperature of the water....


prob
225 posts

Master Geek


  #3346345 24-Feb-2025 14:44
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The deals keep coming. Here is the latest from Harrisons. I have already signed up with another supplier...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Paul - accept your full proposal before 5pm Friday 28 February 2025 and get one of the following Panasonic Appliances FREE:

 

     

  • 50” 4K Smart TV worth $1299
  • 202L Top Mount Fridge/Freezer worth $1199
  • 34L Combination Microwave with Air Fry worth $1699
  • 8.5KG Top Loaded Washing Machine worth $1749

T&Cs apply:

 

     

  • Minimum purchase $12,000, for selected residential customers only
  • Proposals accepted before 5pm, Friday 28 February 2025
  • One per customer, T&Cs apply, cannot be used with any other offer
  • Appliance will be sent on confirmation of final payment

 

 

Contact your local business owner Guy Coleman to get your FREE Appliance:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


timmmay
20574 posts

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  #3346355 24-Feb-2025 15:14
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The prices on Harrisons website are so high we cancelled our consultation before they even visited. Apparently China produced way more solar panels last year than was required so the prices are pretty low right now. Maybe they should try bringing their prices down rather than giving token "free" things the customer really pays for. I think the system we're going to get for about $14K would be about $21K with Harrisons.

 

@prob your post has mucked up formatting for the page. I think you need to remove the html from your post.


plas
453 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #3346368 24-Feb-2025 16:09
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timmmay:

 

The prices on Harrisons website are so high we cancelled our consultation before they even visited. Apparently China produced way more solar panels last year than was required so the prices are pretty low right now. Maybe they should try bringing their prices down rather than giving token "free" things the customer really pays for. I think the system we're going to get for about $14K would be about $21K with Harrisons.

 

@prob your post has mucked up formatting for the page. I think you need to remove the html from your post.

 

 

Harrison presented a similar option to us as you got from SolarMan and it was just under $15k installed.


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