Watching Spark Sport (including launch and pricing)

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6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2294888 12-Aug-2019 16:27

I'm really disappointed. I watched the Chelsea vs Man U game and there was definitely something wrong with the feed even on my iPad (I checked on other devices to makes sure). Was the score really 4-0? 😂

jasonsweetbix

33 posts

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#2294893 12-Aug-2019 16:31

arnies: This doesn't really make sense to me. A higher frame rate should also indicate a higher bitrate. If theres now less frames per second but the same bitrate then what has increased in quality to allow that to happen?

This would essentially mean the compression algorithm on the video is not having to work as hard to fit the same resolution in to the bitrate, this will result in less compression on the source video and so higher quality. You would probably only really notice this when the video would normally struggle, eg. grass shots and busy frames with lots of movement. In these instances there will be less chance of artifacts or macro blocking on the video.

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#2294894 12-Aug-2019 16:32

Well, if they have made changes in the past few days, it's not visible to me. Looks the same as the time before when I checked.

Benoire

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#2294897 12-Aug-2019 16:34

Looks the same as it has been since I watched the icc games. There is also aliasing going on at the far touchline... Nice jaggies!

tdgeek

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#2294901 12-Aug-2019 16:43

Benoire: Looks the same on my phone without casting... I can see that it is about 30 fps... I'm quite sensative to it and it's horrible to see everything judder.

On that match, this is what I see

iPad Air 1 It looks good. motion blur on the ball is fine, about what Sky shows. While the static image is good, looks like 720p, even when the guys are close up, and walking slowly, i.e. taking up most of the screen, its not smooth. I noticed this when football first arrived. It seems like a low quality feed. Like 720p/20 Its not the judder we have been seeing, it s minor judder, its not smooth, even at low movement. The Heineken rugby was worse by a long way. Im trying to seperate the judder issue we have been seeing from what appears to be a base lower quality football feed. If we gt 60fps back, I feel we would see the ball smoother, but the inherent lack of quality would still show some judder.

Macbook. Same as iPad.

ATV4 app on Panny Plasma, old, but top model. If the motion is ON the players move better, smoother, sharper. The ball flickers badly, you can see 3 or 4 images of the ball if hit hard. Motion OFF, the ball is better, maybe 75% of what it should be, so that helped, but the players images goes down. I assume Motion is helping the player image, but OFF that help leaves just the real frames, which is not as good. Helps the ball though. In F1, its better with Motion ON. Before this all happened Motion was ON by default, so I dont know the effect back then, but back then it was 10/10 for me on F1

ruff

63 posts

Master Geek

#2294948 12-Aug-2019 17:00

jasonsweetbix:

ruff:

Well...

The main thing to keep in mind, is that Spark Sport has removed half of the visual information.

So, in lay-mans terms... it's going to look rubbish.

This is half of the information missing from only a few weeks ago. Missing from when they launched their product.

Half of the information missing, compared to every other broadcaster in the world.

There is no coming back from that. It will look bad, until they reinstate an actual broadcast standard on their platform.

I think it's worth noting that it is actually not half the information missing. Given F1, EPL, etc are all 25/30i source, it is all the information displayed at half the number of intervals. The deinterlacing to 30p actually samples the two frame fields at once and outputs a single progressive frame, it doesn't drop a field.

Not so sure about that... been a while since I have filmed the rugby... but, even back then we had all the cameras set to 1920x1080 50i 25fps.

And what I am seeing is that they are not deinterlacing at all, they are just throwing a field away.

Merging or discarding fields into frames is going to result in softening, and motion artefacts. Especially with fast motion... such as sport.

It's not actually a 25i source. In your language. It is a 50i source.

Anyway, seems to be a pretty big disconnect in language here from what we use on set, and what consumers use when looking at images. The main thing to keep in mind is... trust your eyes. If you are happy with the images - great! If you can see the shuttering, then, it's pretty simple. Spark Sport has messed with the feed... because the source material that they are getting from the host broadcaster is excellent. There are broadcast standards in use, globally. And all the traditional broadcasters use them.

Personally, I will find another way to watch the RWC, because these motion issues really bother me.

jasonsweetbix

33 posts

Geek

#2294962 12-Aug-2019 17:21

ruff:

Not so sure about that... been a while since I have filmed the rugby... but, even back then we had all the cameras set to 1920x1080 50i 25fps.

And what I am seeing is that they are not deinterlacing at all, they are just throwing a field away.

Merging or discarding fields into frames is going to result in softening, and motion artefacts. Especially with fast motion... such as sport.

It's not actually a 25i source. In your language. It is a 50i source.

Anyway, seems to be a pretty big disconnect in language here from what we use on set, and what consumers use when looking at images. The main thing to keep in mind is... trust your eyes. If you are happy with the images - great! If you can see the shuttering, then, it's pretty simple. Spark Sport has messed with the feed... because the source material that they are getting from the host broadcaster is excellent. There are broadcast standards in use, globally. And all the traditional broadcasters use them.

Personally, I will find another way to watch the RWC, because these motion issues really bother me.

Yeah I think there is some difference in terminology, 25i would actually be 50 half frames (50 fields) I have also heard this referred to as 50i before but I tend to use 25i. In any case, I would think with the amount of public feedback around this that there will be some improvement ahead of RWC.

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JarrodM

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Ultimate Geek

#2294966 12-Aug-2019 17:48

Just watching the highlights of Manchester United vs Chelsea. Before the game highlights even started my mum said “it looks a bit sh*t doesn’t it” and then “it looks like you are playing PlayStation game”, and is worried “is this what the World Cup is going to look like?” “It’s quite hard to watch”
And she is by no means a videophile...

tdgeek

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#2294978 12-Aug-2019 18:08

JarrodM: Just watching the highlights of Manchester United vs Chelsea. Before the game highlights even started my mum said “it looks a bit sh*t doesn’t it” and then “it looks like you are playing PlayStation game”, and is worried “is this what the World Cup is going to look like?” “It’s quite hard to watch”
And she is by no means a videophile...

Im not seeing that. It starts with a rotating image of the stadium and surrounds, that's pixellated, then it goes to the players walking, thats pixelated, that it gets sharp. After that its fine, subject to my comments above. Its definitely better on my MacBook or iPad. Its pretty good.BUT on my TV thats where it breaks down. I do feel there has been a change but based on what we have been told (compatibility for some devices) what each of us sees will probably differ, dependent on devices.

All I know is off it goes back to what it was everyone will be happy. Those devices that had to be aided, are hopefully long in the tooth and maybe should not have full support.

foxy38

357 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2294981 12-Aug-2019 18:16

watched spurs game..sony z9d 65 '' close ups look ok..but running shots or paning fast ,awful..judders and not crisp as sky sport..didnt notice any ball trailing..just not a good pic... to pay money for..all motion settimgs off..may try with them on..but surely it must get better than this..or sell it back to sky so we can have a decent pic.. on a side note my 84 year old stepfather watched some of it didnt no it was an app on the tv..and said my picture wasnt as good as his tv at home says it all really

foxy

JarrodM

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#2294982 12-Aug-2019 18:17

tdgeek:
JarrodM: Just watching the highlights of Manchester United vs Chelsea. Before the game highlights even started my mum said “it looks a bit sh*t doesn’t it” and then “it looks like you are playing PlayStation game”, and is worried “is this what the World Cup is going to look like?” “It’s quite hard to watch”
And she is by no means a videophile...

Im not seeing that. It starts with a rotating image of the stadium and surrounds, that's pixellated, then it goes to the players walking, thats pixelated, that it gets sharp. After that its fine, subject to my comments above. Its definitely better on my MacBook or iPad. Its pretty good.BUT on my TV thats where it breaks down. I do feel there has been a change but based on what we have been told (compatibility for some devices) what each of us sees will probably differ, dependent on devices.

All I know is off it goes back to what it was everyone will be happy. Those devices that had to be aided, are hopefully long in the tooth and maybe should not have full support.

This was on the Apple tv 4, it took a few seconds to get up to the highest quality, and she still was making the comments during the whole 12 minutes.

I’ve changed the output resolution on the Apple tv to 1080p at 30fps instead of 50. I asked if it looked better and she said mhmm maybe a bit, there was still a bit of judder for me but it did feel a bit better than before.. dont think we should need to change any settings though considering every other app streams fine...

tdgeek

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#2294983 12-Aug-2019 18:19

foxy38:

watched spurs game..sony z9d 65 '' close ups look ok..but running shots or paning fast ,awful..judders and not crisp as sky sport..didnt notice any ball trailing..just not a good pic... to pay money for..all motion settimgs off..may try with them on..but surely it must get better than this..or sell it back to sky so we can have a decent pic..

Can you try it on a tablet or PC/Mac? Not suggesting that instead, I'd like to see how you find it excluding the TV. Isolating. I found that Motion settings off made the ball better, the players worse

foxy38

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Ultimate Geek

#2294985 12-Aug-2019 18:21

tdgeek.....yes can try on pc...will have a look....

foxy

tdgeek

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#2294991 12-Aug-2019 18:49

JarrodM:
tdgeek:

JarrodM: Just watching the highlights of Manchester United vs Chelsea. Before the game highlights even started my mum said “it looks a bit sh*t doesn’t it” and then “it looks like you are playing PlayStation game”, and is worried “is this what the World Cup is going to look like?” “It’s quite hard to watch”
And she is by no means a videophile...

Im not seeing that. It starts with a rotating image of the stadium and surrounds, that's pixellated, then it goes to the players walking, thats pixelated, that it gets sharp. After that its fine, subject to my comments above. Its definitely better on my MacBook or iPad. Its pretty good.BUT on my TV thats where it breaks down. I do feel there has been a change but based on what we have been told (compatibility for some devices) what each of us sees will probably differ, dependent on devices.

All I know is off it goes back to what it was everyone will be happy. Those devices that had to be aided, are hopefully long in the tooth and maybe should not have full support.

This was on the Apple tv 4, it took a few seconds to get up to the highest quality, and she still was making the comments during the whole 12 minutes.

I’ve changed the output resolution on the Apple tv to 1080p at 30fps instead of 50. I asked if it looked better and she said mhmm maybe a bit, there was still a bit of judder for me but it did feel a bit better than before.. dont think we should need to change any settings though considering every other app streams fine...

100% on your last point.

Im on ATV4 as well, I dont follow "1080p at 30fps instead of 50" Mine has Hz, do you mean from 50Hz to 60Hz? I assume so.

Right, something funny is going on. On this highlights, its improved for me. Ball motion is good, Motion setting is ON (which for makes players better and ball poor)

Its better than the full replay. How later did the highlights clip appear after the full replay? Minutes, hours, a day? Reason I ask is that I am seeing improvements, and later content seems better than older content.

I went to the latest WTA, image is good (usually is). The ball motion isn't ideal, maybe its a tickle better? BUT, I tried 50Hz, 60Hz, Motion ON and OFF, I can't pick the best they all seem the same. What I do know, is when you look at the background as that pans, it judders, but this WTA clip is smooth. I think this piece is back to normal. Went to Wimbledon final, thats a bit judders on background panning and even the ball kids running. Not great. Its an older clip. Maybe that matters

Can you check the WTA Rogers Cup Final and see what you think>

tdgeek

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#2294992 12-Aug-2019 18:58

And for a streaming device, in our case the ATV4, does to matter whether its set to 1080p/50Hz or 60Hz. If I change it , it tells me it has changed my TV to the new setting. So at 50Hz the ATV and my TV are at 50Hz. What is the content from Spark? Netflix? TVNZ? etc?. Does that setting matter?

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