Global mode over ? Lets see.....

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814 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1282543 13-Apr-2015 22:04

NonprayingMantis:
lchiu7:

If ,as you suggest, there is nothing they could do about people using unblock-us etc on spark broadband, then there is no upside from 'taking action' against their own customers. Only downside. So they wouldn't do it, no matter how much they would like it to be shut down.

On the other hand, if they could get a court ruling that global mode was illegal (or at least could not be promoted as giving access to content) then that would force all the isps to shut it down or at least stop talking about it.. It would cease to become a differnetiator for callplus. Yeah, people could still use unblockus etc, but their choice of isp would be irrelevant . So there is potential upside for spark.

Just a technical query but why couldn't they? I recall TCL used to do that inadvertently with their transparent proxy so even if you unused Unblock-US, your IP packets would be re-written by TCL's transparent proxy to show that the packets were from NZ so that if you tried Netflix etc it would fail. Fortunately it only occurred on port 80 so that tablets, phones and devices would work fine. But it was annoying enough for me to move to Telecom (then) VDSL service for one year until Vodafone bought TCL, fixed the proxy not to that ( not related to be sure) and offered unlimited cable broadband.

not 100% sure about the smart DNS services, but they most definitely can't do anything about VPNs - there are far too many legitimate uses for VPNs, and the nature of a VPN means spark can't see what the traffic going through it is.

Yep - that (i.e transparent proxy use) was what I recall being a problem for DNS spoofing. I *strongly* suspect it wouldn't be that difficult for Spark to override DNS providers if they weren't - for want of a better term - "conflicted". Or pussies.

VPNs - no argument there. Much harder to override. Still, if they bombed DNS spoofers that would make it that much harder to bypass geoblocks, and if I recall, much of the argument is been about making things more difficult to deter the average Joe and Jane Bloggs, rather than crytpogeeks on I2P.

StarBlazer

961 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#1282622 14-Apr-2015 08:11

If Spark were to prevent the use of DNS spoofing then they would see a churn of customers to ISPs that do not. It may not be a massive number of customers as a % of customer base, but the ones they lose will be the ones with unlimited BB or top speed connections for VoD and who probably spend the most.

I just hope that once the law is "clarified" they get back to building on what they have. As long as there is not a huge price difference, people will generally choose based on service.

Procrastination eventually pays off.

lchiu7

6470 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1282669 14-Apr-2015 08:59

StarBlazer: If Spark were to prevent the use of DNS spoofing then they would see a churn of customers to ISPs that do not. It may not be a massive number of customers as a % of customer base, but the ones they lose will be the ones with unlimited BB or top speed connections for VoD and who probably spend the most.

I just hope that once the law is "clarified" they get back to building on what they have. As long as there is not a huge price difference, people will generally choose based on service.

Or people just move to VPN's. They are a bit harder to implement at the router level but not impossible.

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sultanoswing

814 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1282693 14-Apr-2015 09:31

StarBlazer: If Spark were to prevent the use of DNS spoofing then they would see a churn of customers to ISPs that do not. It may not be a massive number of customers as a % of customer base, but the ones they lose will be the ones with unlimited BB or top speed connections for VoD and who probably spend the most.

And this is preceisely why this is a matter of economics rather than principle for the 4 litgants, so far as I can ascertain.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#1282707 14-Apr-2015 09:40

sultanoswing:
NonprayingMantis:
lchiu7:

If ,as you suggest, there is nothing they could do about people using unblock-us etc on spark broadband, then there is no upside from 'taking action' against their own customers. Only downside. So they wouldn't do it, no matter how much they would like it to be shut down.

On the other hand, if they could get a court ruling that global mode was illegal (or at least could not be promoted as giving access to content) then that would force all the isps to shut it down or at least stop talking about it.. It would cease to become a differnetiator for callplus. Yeah, people could still use unblockus etc, but their choice of isp would be irrelevant . So there is potential upside for spark.

Just a technical query but why couldn't they? I recall TCL used to do that inadvertently with their transparent proxy so even if you unused Unblock-US, your IP packets would be re-written by TCL's transparent proxy to show that the packets were from NZ so that if you tried Netflix etc it would fail. Fortunately it only occurred on port 80 so that tablets, phones and devices would work fine. But it was annoying enough for me to move to Telecom (then) VDSL service for one year until Vodafone bought TCL, fixed the proxy not to that ( not related to be sure) and offered unlimited cable broadband.

not 100% sure about the smart DNS services, but they most definitely can't do anything about VPNs - there are far too many legitimate uses for VPNs, and the nature of a VPN means spark can't see what the traffic going through it is.

Yep - that (i.e transparent proxy use) was what I recall being a problem for DNS spoofing. I *strongly* suspect it wouldn't be that difficult for Spark to override DNS providers if they weren't - for want of a better term - "conflicted". Or pussies.

VPNs - no argument there. Much harder to override. Still, if they bombed DNS spoofers that would make it that much harder to bypass geoblocks, and if I recall, much of the argument is been about making things more difficult to deter the average Joe and Jane Bloggs, rather than crytpogeeks on I2P.

as they have said, they don't care what individuals do with their connections. (and if they did, it would run afoul of various things like net neutrality and safe harbour principles i.e. ISPs currently have legal protection under a sort-of 'dont ask don't tell' policy. They definitely don't want to be messing with people's connections in this way or it will give the studios a reason to argue for even greater sanctions i.e. Sony: "If you can stop unblock-us, then you can block pirate bay!")

what they care about is companies promoting how to get around geoblocking and making it accessible to the masses. Obviously there is nothing they can do about unblock-us etc as they are located in, IIRC, the bahamas or bermuda. They also don't market the service to kiwis in a huge way i.e. no TV ads.
But Callplus is located in NZ, and (attempted) to market this service on TV, so they are a target.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#1282708 14-Apr-2015 09:41

sultanoswing:
StarBlazer: If Spark were to prevent the use of DNS spoofing then they would see a churn of customers to ISPs that do not. It may not be a massive number of customers as a % of customer base, but the ones they lose will be the ones with unlimited BB or top speed connections for VoD and who probably spend the most.

And this is preceisely why this is a matter of economics rather than principle for the 4 litgants, so far as I can ascertain.

everything is about economics. :)

lchiu7

6470 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1282726 14-Apr-2015 10:21

NonprayingMantis:

what they care about is companies promoting how to get around geoblocking and making it accessible to the masses. Obviously there is nothing they can do about unblock-us etc as they are located in, IIRC, the bahamas or bermuda. They also don't market the service to kiwis in a huge way i.e. no TV ads.
But Callplus is located in NZ, and (attempted) to market this service on TV, so they are a target.

They have just been bought by M2 in Australia

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/67716320/callplus-bought-for-250-million

who might have even deeper pockets to deal with this.

And as an aside, Unotelly advertises in NZ via Google Ads on this site :-)

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

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NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#1282747 14-Apr-2015 10:45

lchiu7:
NonprayingMantis:

what they care about is companies promoting how to get around geoblocking and making it accessible to the masses. Obviously there is nothing they can do about unblock-us etc as they are located in, IIRC, the bahamas or bermuda. They also don't market the service to kiwis in a huge way i.e. no TV ads.
But Callplus is located in NZ, and (attempted) to market this service on TV, so they are a target.

They have just been bought by M2 in Australia

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/67716320/callplus-bought-for-250-million

who might have even deeper pockets to deal with this.

yeah, makes it very interesting. Even before the acquisition callplus are not strangers to litigation against Telecom, so they should definitely be defending this if they think they have a good case.

And as an aside, Unotelly advertises in NZ via Google Ads on this site :-)

yeah, but advertising in a very low key manner - a few dollars of google ads on a specific site where your product is already discussed - is massively different from advertising on TV and spending millions.

Amosnz

567 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1282749 14-Apr-2015 10:48

PrimoWireless (my ISP) just announced they are turning their GlobalMode off.

Speedtest

sultanoswing

814 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1282764 14-Apr-2015 11:05

Amosnz: PrimoWireless (my ISP) just announced they are turning their GlobalMode off.

Ahh that's a shame. Especially looking at your speedtest results! Still, with bandwidth like that you could set up a nice node on I2P ;)

lchiu7

6470 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1282877 14-Apr-2015 12:41

Amosnz: PrimoWireless (my ISP) just announced they are turning their GlobalMode off.

What this has meant you have had the opportunity to experience viewing overseas content for no cost apart from the costs of subscription services for Netflix, Hulu at al and now can make a decision if you want to spend $4-$5/month on a commercial unblocking service.

I don't count BBC or ITV of course which are "free" not possibly some of the US network streaming sites which I haven't tried myself.

Try before you buy so to speak!

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

Bobdn

222 posts

Master Geek

#1283237 14-Apr-2015 20:49

Interesting article in the Herald. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/internet/news/article.cfm?c_id=137&objectid=11432507

"New CallPlus Owners ponder backdoor TV backdown". Quoting from the article:

"[CE] Horth said M2 does not provide Global Mode across the Tasman, which allows phone companies to provide easy access.

"That conduct under Australian laws would be seen to be aiding and abetting. " Horth said though some companies were offering proxy accessing overseas networks by using Virtual Private Networks.," he said.

Hmm, interesting.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#1283247 14-Apr-2015 21:04

Amosnz: PrimoWireless (my ISP) just announced they are turning their GlobalMode off.

so now you can decide between using Hola (which is free) or unblock-us or unotelly (which are the enormous price of $5 or less per month and both significantly better than global mode anyway)

Looking at all the articles about how this is reducing choice for customers, or undermining internet freedom, it really isn't all that bad.

This is a storm in a teacup when you consider the actual 'impact' to the end customer in those terms i.e. the customers can now get a better product than global mode for less than the price of a cup of coffee per month. (and it doesn';t have to influence their choice of ISP either - giving MORE freedom to move ISPs)

jarledb

Webhead
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#1283279 14-Apr-2015 21:24

Not sure how taking away a service is a better deal for consumers. Mind you, I would probably still be using UnoTelly even if I was on an ISP that provided Global mode, because I doubt any Global mode providers provide the same range of channels as UnoTelly does. (Including norwegian TV).

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NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#1283299 14-Apr-2015 21:54

jarledb: Not sure how taking away a service is a better deal for consumers. Mind you, I would probably still be using UnoTelly even if I was on an ISP that provided Global mode, because I doubt any Global mode providers provide the same range of channels as UnoTelly does. (Including norwegian TV).

not really better, but just only very slightly worse, because the alternatives to global mode are actually better than global mode. (for an example of how, see your post :) )

i.e. it is removing an option which is inferior for most people anyway

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