Is Netflix too much traffic for your ISP?

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#1291550 25-Apr-2015 22:47

yitz:
DonGould: Everything should be done at layer 3, not layer 2.
Dude you should let the Metro Ethernet Forum know about this one...

Sure, ethernet v's ATM, ISDN, Frame or other layer 2 protocols.

Networks in cities designed to connect private lans.

A layer 2 protocol to make business networking so stupidly easy that all you have to do is plug in switch on both sides and connect every computer in 10 buildings together.

Sure, with no management you can get broadcast storms, but who cares, it's a private lan/wan and you've got so much control over every bit of kit that you don't care.

You'll also get lots of broadcast traffic with 100 computers in 10 offices on 1 big lan, but with 1Gb dark fibre, like you care.

My point was about moving traffic from Christchurch to Auckland and back just because the guy at 1 Somewhere Street is a 2talk customer and the guy at 2 Somewhere Street is a Snap customer, but 2Talk only hand off in Auckland.

D

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Jase2985

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#1291551 25-Apr-2015 23:00

just some stats from around the year 2000, the population has gone up by about 600,000 since then

Highly rural/remote - 2.0 % (76,449 people) of New Zealand’s usually resident population count lived in these areas, 53.1 % of the total land area. 0.5 people per square kilometer
Rural areas with low urban influence - 6.0% (224,391) of New Zealand’s usually resident population count lived in these areas, 33% of the total land area. 2.6 people per square kilometer
Rural areas with moderate influence - 3.6% (135,306) of New Zealand’s usually resident population count lived in these areas, 7.8% of the total land area. 6.5 people per square kilometer.
Rural areas with high urban influence - 2.6% (95,799) of New Zealand’s usually resident population count lived in these areas, 2.8% of the total land area. 14.2 people per square kilometer.

So "Rural" is 14.2% of the NZ population according to the stats, and they cover 96.7% of the total land area of NZ, so approximately 2 people per square kilometer.

Independent urban communities - 11.7% (437,688 people) of New Zealand’s usually resident population count lived in these areas, 0.6 % of the total land area. 265 people per square kilometer
Satellite urban communities - 3% (111,036) of New Zealand’s usually resident population count lived in these areas, 0.2 % of the total land area. 14.2 people per square kilometer
Independent urban communities - 71% (2,654,850 people) of New Zealand’s usually resident population count lived in these areas, 1.9 % of the total land area. 522.8 people per square kilometer

So "Urban" is 85.7% of the NZ population according to the stats, and they cover 2.7% of the total land area of NZ.

The current Fiber rollout has cost 1.3billion and it will cover 70-80% of New Zealanders

you need to be ~2.4km (cable length) to get 10mbit, so for the rest of NZ, the 20-30% of people who wont get fiber in the current roll out, who cover 97% of the land area of NZ (yes i do realise that a lot of that is mountain/Forrest etc) but it just means any house/premises needing connected is more spread out.

to provide people in rural areas 10mbit means fibre fed cabinets, so that means every cabinet, which is 2.4km apart, needs to have a fibre backhaul (yes you could do it via microwave etc but thats another discussion). when you look at population density for those areas, 2 people per kilometer square, its a lot of money to spend to provide services to a small amount of people, when in an urban area you could be potentially providing services to over 200 times that in a rural area.

the common quote i see round here is you cant expect to live rurally and expect to receive urban services and their performance. well you can, you just have have pay yourself to play.

DonGould

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#1291570 25-Apr-2015 23:49

Jase2985: ... (yes you could do it via microwave etc but thats another discussion).

Actually that is exactly the answer to the issues, wireless.

If we want to get Netflix and other IPTV services to people in low density rural areas then we are going to have to think wireless because it's the only solution that works.

We have to stop thinking copper because most of the copper in these locations is now so old that it's worthless and the cost of replacing it with fibre is just pointless economically.

Jase2985: the common quote i see round here is you cant expect to live rurally and expect to receive urban services and their performance. well you can, you just have have pay yourself to play.

I agree that those in these areas who want to play need to pay too. We have to pay in urban areas, why shouldn't they?

As for like for like performance, that's not what this discussion has been about.

Dunedin, 'gigtown' has 1 Gbit connections, that's 1,000 mbit. We're just talking about getting 10mbit to homes so they can run a 4mbit IPTV service.

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coffeebaron

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#1291572 26-Apr-2015 00:01

Wireless, hmm now why has no one else thought of that? What's that RBI Wireless thing?

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DonGould

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#1291573 26-Apr-2015 00:07

coffeebaron: Wireless, hmm now why has no one else thought of that? What's that RBI Wireless thing?

Exactly!

Yet people seem to talk on and on and on about copper and just not get it that 1's can be delivered on something other than fibre and copper.

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yitz

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#1291575 26-Apr-2015 00:14

Does anyone know whether Vodafone are mandated to deliver RBI wireless using the 'latest technology'? Sort of like how back when Telecom Wholesale argued VDSL2 should have been wholesaled separately but the ComCom determined both ADSL and VDSL were actually part of the UBA STD?

Dratsab

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#1291580 26-Apr-2015 00:57

Is it the spike in Talkiet's +1's that have congested this thread or the off topicness?

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Bobdn

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#1291582 26-Apr-2015 01:18

I've been watching a huge amount of Netflix NZ and Lightbox during the evenings. I'm with Spark and have a VDSL connection which gives me 25/9 or there abouts. It's working really well. Lightbox buffers once for maybe 20 seconds every hour or so of HD content and Netflix does the same (in Netflix's case it drops down from 1080p to 480 before it gets back up to full strength). No big deal.

roobarb

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#1291596 26-Apr-2015 08:04

DonGould:... that 1's can be delivered on something other than fibre and copper.

Although they are not fashionable, zeroes are also quite important.

Are you also proposing https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt ?

sbiddle

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#1291625 26-Apr-2015 09:29

DonGould:

You'll also get lots of broadcast traffic with 100 computers in 10 offices on 1 big lan, but with 1Gb dark fibre, like you care.

I can't even begin to contemplate writing a response to this, other than saying my head just exploded.

roobarb

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#1291632 26-Apr-2015 10:08

DonGould: Dunedin, 'gigtown' has 1 Gbit connections, that's 1,000 mbit. We're just talking about getting 10mbit to homes so they can run a 4mbit IPTV service.

Just done a quick calculation, it would take over 16 minutes to transmit a single bit at a rate of 1 mbit per second.

RunningMan

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#1291672 26-Apr-2015 11:31

DonGould: [snip] Dunedin, 'gigtown' has 1 Gbit connections, that's 1,000 mbit.

Actually, it's 1,000 Mbit, 1024 if you want to be pedantic. Also, it's Mb/s otherwise it's a size, not a rate of data transfer.

Sorry for picking on your example specifically (it's not the only example!), but as others have picked up, it can significantly change the meaning of what you are trying to say if the incorrect units are used.

myfullflavour

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Full Flavour

#1291741 26-Apr-2015 14:37

raytaylor: The solution I believe is regional internet exchanges with co-owned CDN boxes and openconnect.
The net neutrality issue that netflix is fighting in the USA is going to become a problem here in NZ over the next 5 years - and there are two solutions

1) Netflix installs cache nodes in every major town so the source gets closer to the destination
2) ISP's create more regional internet exchanges with co-owned netflix CDN caches.
Larger ISPs can install the caches with their own regional equipment - smaller ISPs will work together.

One thing i was told by the small ISPs in the USA is that a netflix box requires about a 100mbit uplink scheduled for about 6 hours a day to update and fill the content... probably not that much in NZ but in chatting to the guy from fullflavour, his box was using about 1gbit and had taken 18 hours to fill when i was looking at the graphs, and was still going strong. The data was filling from australia.

Here's some commentary:

1) New Zealand is tiny in the big scheme of things and most multi national providers treat New Zealand as a suburb of Sydney. I don't expect the Amazons, Microsofts, Googles and Netflixes to build infrastructure here in the medium term.

Sydney bandwidth pricing seems to be dropping by the month to the point where it's nearly cheaper to backhaul Sydney>Auckland than Auckland to some parts of South Island.

This price competition will further intensify next year when the new Spark/Voda/Telstra cable goes live. Each of those operators will be competing against each other to sell wholesale capacity, as a number of ISPs heard at a recent ISPANZ conference.

2) CDN's in peering exchanges are complicated because they need backfill. Backfill costs money. Who's going to cover that cost? Netflix is one of the better systems as most of the backfill occurs during a 12 hour window between midnight and midday. Google works on a hit/miss system where the first time a video is requested, the user will be delivered the video as will the cache. The second request will result in a cache hit.

3) Netflix requires 1.2Gbps cache fill capacity during a 12 hour window, daily. You can read up on this on the public OpenConnect documentation site. This means you need to be doing multiple Gbps of Netflix traffic for the implementation of a cache to be worthwhile.

We're interested in growing the regional ISP market in New Zealand.

We've taken a community approach to Netflix and other content we host and are working with WAIA who are operating http://akl-ix.nz. Subject to some criteria, any regional operator can join AKL-IX (at present free for 6 months) and gain access to locally hosted content.

A second option is for an ISP to cross-connect with us in either of our regional POPs (Cameron RD Chorus exchange Tauranga or Caro St Chorus exchange Hamilton). Two ISPs are in the process of on-boarding with us there.

A third option involves connecting to our VPLS backhaul network which has POPs in almost every UFB area nationwide.

A fourth option is a virtual cross-connect across the http://www.intellipath.co.nz, though I recognise the locations are somewhat limited outside of Auckland right now.

So there is no reason a New Zealand regional operator should be disadvantaged by their comparative scale to the national players.

DonGould: pppoe sessions should terminate close to the customer and layer 3 routing should kick in. We shouldn't be moving traffic to Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland that only needs to go from one port in an ISAM to another.

Don kinda has a point here but this needs to be at a major regional POP level, not in some random exchange.

It's a bit of a shambles in Tauranga that we have three regional ISPs that don't interconnect with each other locally. The traffic is forced to go to Auckland and back. This is mostly a political issue as the other operators don't bother to engage with the ISP community.

We're in better shape in Hamilton. Full Flavour will have a BNG there next month and cross-connecting with several other local networks so traffic moving locally between our own customer connections and those of participating local Hamilton networks is kept local.

EDIT: For better formatting.

yitz

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#1291758 26-Apr-2015 15:55

Isn't that what the likes of FX Networks already do? www.fx.net.nz/who-we-work-with/

myfullflavour

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Full Flavour

#1291776 26-Apr-2015 16:20

FX is a commercial solution. Sure, they can give you access to content they host but its on commercial domestic transit terms.

Callplus and Snap also offer this.

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