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JohnButt

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  #1291782 26-Apr-2015 16:38
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Thanks to @ray Taylor and @myfullflavour. For some clear explanations on this topic. Yes ,regionally located core equipment improves performance, just look at our monitoring of latency over the years, Snap has had the most distributed network and so the best regional results.

We are slowly getting near to being able to include Full Flavour in results, but we will be unlikely to ever be able to compare regionally, pity.

BTW regional hubs have little impact on speed, just response times through better latency. We have panelists with satellite connections running at 10Mb/s, a speed that is available everywhere, but latency is an issue if you need it.



DonGould
3892 posts

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  #1291888 26-Apr-2015 20:38
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myfullflavour: Don kinda has a point here


Thanks :)

myfullflavour: but this needs to be at a major regional POP level, not in some random exchange.


Talkiet: ... You have no real telco level experience ...


Neil's right, I don't have enough experience to know the specifics of the answer.  I only have a view of where I think we should be heading in concept.

As I see it, there are dozens of reasons why we do need to peer. 

These include privacy and security.  It doesn't strike me as good that we're concentrating all our communications through single points where our data can be intercepted.

As I said earlier, data should go via the shortest path and not where it doesn't actually need to be going.

But I also get the dynamics of this.  From what I can tell, we couldn't do this in the current IPv4 BGP space.  The global routing table is already to large for some routers to deal with and the protocols we currently use don't appear to me to support my altruistic  view of how things should work.

We also just don't have enough IP space to do this either.  I can buy a router for $35 dollars that will do BGP but what's the cost of a /24 to announce on it and then how do I justify 256 addresses on a road side cabinet where I might only have 5 customers?

So I guess we're talking about IPv6 before we're going to get any where close to the sort of peering I was talking about.

I also see that we're going to need some more stepping stones before we get from where we are today to where I think we should be and will eventually get.







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DonGould
3892 posts

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  #1291890 26-Apr-2015 20:45
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myfullflavour: I don't expect the Amazons, Microsofts, Googles and Netflixes to build infrastructure here in the medium term.


...and yet they are.

Google and Netflix both have caches in .nz based NOCs, with smaller and smaller ISPs currently looking at getting them too.

I think we're going to see big changes with the new cable to .au comes on line and even bigger ones when we see a cable to south America. 

I predict that we'll see providers share server capacity across time zones.  Few people are pulling traffic off a server in Auckland at 12pm, most of us have headed to bed.  But it's only 10pm in Sydney and 7pm in Perth.  As international links get fatter I can see more and more resource sharing from time zone to time zone, between providers, to carry serving load.

/crystal ball




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Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz




raytaylor
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  #1292054 27-Apr-2015 00:17
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DonGould:

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/coming-soon-new-products/mikrotik-sfp-10g-single-mode-10km.html?keyword=sfp+

Less than $2000 you can upgrade fibre from town to town.  Is it really worth the investment of a cache in every town?  What are these cache's worth?


As you pump more traffic through a central point... like sub-towns uplinked through a major town, and onward to a cache hosted at a city, the routers along the way need to get bigger and bigger.

Sudddenly running a cache in the smaller locations becomes cheaper than buying $50k routers to handle the traffic at some distant point. Keeping the source close to the consumer is the answer.

Also hard drives in caches can only read at a limited speed and since its on-demand, each customer needs their own stream of data. If a cache has a 10gbit port on it, it needs to be connected to a router that can route 10gbits which in turn might feed a 10gbit link to another city which requires another 10gbit router, which then feeds another city which may need a 5gbit router.

At 5mbits per stream, thats only 2,000 viewers. It would not surprise me if after xmas this year, isp's are rolling out netflix boxes to the major regional exchanges.
In the USA, they had a huge increase when netflix and big box stores were running promos on netflix branded capable tv's (like freeview approved boxes)
There was xmas/black friday promos everywhere selling smart tv's that were netflix capable and the result was a huge uptake in netflix usage. 

Broadcast TV is on its way out. Ondemand is the way of the future.
Sky better get used to it and stop wasting money on lawyers.




Ray Taylor

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raytaylor
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  #1292055 27-Apr-2015 00:22
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yitz: Does anyone know whether Vodafone are mandated to deliver RBI wireless using the 'latest technology'? Sort of like how back when Telecom Wholesale argued VDSL2 should have been wholesaled separately but the ComCom determined both ADSL and VDSL were actually part of the UBA STD?


Vodafone's contract with the government requires each of the RBI sites to be "LTE Ready" by which they define as capable of being upgraded to LTE






Ray Taylor

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Spreadsheet for Comparing Electricity Plans Here


sorceror
163 posts

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  #1292060 27-Apr-2015 00:39
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DonGould:
myfullflavour: Don kinda has a point here


Thanks :)

myfullflavour: but this needs to be at a major regional POP level, not in some random exchange.


Talkiet: ... You have no real telco level experience ...


Neil's right, I don't have enough experience to know the specifics of the answer.  I only have a view of where I think we should be heading in concept.

As I see it, there are dozens of reasons why we do need to peer. 

These include privacy and security.  It doesn't strike me as good that we're concentrating all our communications through single points where our data can be intercepted.

As I said earlier, data should go via the shortest path and not where it doesn't actually need to be going.

But I also get the dynamics of this.  From what I can tell, we couldn't do this in the current IPv4 BGP space.  The global routing table is already to large for some routers to deal with and the protocols we currently use don't appear to me to support my altruistic  view of how things should work.

We also just don't have enough IP space to do this either.  I can buy a router for $35 dollars that will do BGP but what's the cost of a /24 to announce on it and then how do I justify 256 addresses on a road side cabinet where I might only have 5 customers?

So I guess we're talking about IPv6 before we're going to get any where close to the sort of peering I was talking about.

I also see that we're going to need some more stepping stones before we get from where we are today to where I think we should be and will eventually get.





The mind boggles how you can even claim to understand enough to decide that BGP isn't 'how things should work' .

freitasm
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  #1292081 27-Apr-2015 08:39
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sbiddle:
DonGould:

You'll also get lots of broadcast traffic with 100 computers in 10 offices on 1 big lan, but with 1Gb dark fibre, like you care.



I can't even begin to contemplate writing a response to this, other than saying my head just exploded.




But you should write. So that everyone else knows what's that so many disagree with. Don's making his case while everyone else is just saying "No..." or mocking. Either not cool.







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johnr
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  #1292082 27-Apr-2015 08:44
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raytaylor:
yitz: Does anyone know whether Vodafone are mandated to deliver RBI wireless using the 'latest technology'? Sort of like how back when Telecom Wholesale argued VDSL2 should have been wholesaled separately but the ComCom determined both ADSL and VDSL were actually part of the UBA STD?


Vodafone's contract with the government requires each of the RBI sites to be "LTE Ready" by which they define as capable of being upgraded to LTE




Many RBI sites have got 4G on them already running L700 or L700 & L1800 some even have L2600

John

deadlyllama
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  #1292118 27-Apr-2015 10:31
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DonGould:
yitz:
DonGould:  Everything should be done at layer 3, not layer 2.
Dude you should let the Metro Ethernet Forum know about this one...


Sure, ethernet v's ATM, ISDN, Frame or other layer 2 protocols.

Networks in cities designed to connect private lans.

A layer 2 protocol to make business networking so stupidly easy that all you have to do is plug in switch on both sides and connect every computer in 10 buildings together.


If you plug 10 buildings together (in the same business) on the same ethernet broadcast domain, your support costs will be insane.  Because when something breaks, you'll have to track it down.  E.g. IP conflicts, some idiot running their own DHCP server... If you put those offices in different cities, how do you engineer a DHCP service that still assigns IPs and lets people continue working when one link goes down?  How do you handle traffic to/from the internet, particularly if the offices are very spread out (e.g. NZ/AU/US)?  All solvable problems, but in a reasonably normal enterprise network, already solved, and pre-trained staff who know how to build these things are available.

myfullflavour
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  #1292158 27-Apr-2015 11:27
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DonGould: As I said earlier, data should go via the shortest path and not where it doesn't actually need to be going.

But I also get the dynamics of this.  From what I can tell, we couldn't do this in the current IPv4 BGP space.  The global routing table is already to large for some routers to deal with and the protocols we currently use don't appear to me to support my altruistic  view of how things should work.

We also just don't have enough IP space to do this either.  I can buy a router for $35 dollars that will do BGP but what's the cost of a /24 to announce on it and then how do I justify 256 addresses on a road side cabinet where I might only have 5 customers?


So this is where your idea veers completely off course. Peering is never going to happen at a cabinet level, let alone a minor exchange level.

With UFB, most locations only have one exchange the traffic terminates in and in some of the larger areas you can argue the case for local peering.


DonGould:
myfullflavour: I don't expect the Amazons, Microsofts, Googles and Netflixes to build infrastructure here in the medium term.


...and yet they are.

Google and Netflix both have caches in .nz based NOCs, with smaller and smaller ISPs currently looking at getting them too.

I think we're going to see big changes with the new cable to .au comes on line and even bigger ones when we see a cable to south America. 


Caches don't count. The point is NZ is likely to remain reliant on Sydney for a very long time to come.

Your comment about a South American cable is exactly why some others earlier in this thread have stopped engaging with you.

DonGould
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  #1292202 27-Apr-2015 12:33
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myfullflavour: So this is where your idea veers completely off course. Peering is never going to happen at a cabinet level, let alone a minor exchange level.

With UFB, most locations only have one exchange the traffic terminates in and in some of the larger areas you can argue the case for local peering.


Agreed. 

I was being idealistic and I think that was obvious to most readers.

You're right about reality.  Nodes are gone as UFB goes in because the fibre reach is 10km v's 1km.


myfullflavour: Caches don't count. The point is NZ is likely to remain reliant on Sydney for a very long time to come.


And sydney is going to be reliant on the .us to fill it too.


myfullflavour: Your comment about a South American cable is exactly why some others earlier in this thread have stopped engaging with you.


I don't really care if folks choose not to engage.  I'm engaging their comments and if they choose to let my comments stand and leave it at that, that's fine.

As for South America, pffft....  read back through Geekzone and you'll see dozens of posts with people telling me point blank that there is just NO business case for an other cable to Sydney from Auckland!...  yet here we are with two providers working together to build just such a cable.

Read back further and people said there was no case to put servers in Sydney.... then no case to put servers in Auckland and then no case to put servers in the south island.... yet all of those seem to also either be happening or have happened.

What I do know about the SA cable is that people are already working on the project.  It's partly driven by the fact that there are many people out there who want to see an end to .us being the center of the internet and know that investment in other regions is critical if we're to see a truly global, uncaptured internet.





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Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


50n0f508
41 posts

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  #1293518 29-Apr-2015 13:10
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Just to bring things back to the forum's subject. I am on Vodafone cable and was happily enjoying 100/10 (with the occasional slowdown) until Netflilx came along. Since then during peak hours my speed fluctuates wildly between 20mbps to 60mbps and ping is just as volatile. Netflix performance in particular has suffered; even with +50mbps I cannot get Netflix to display 1080p on PS3, the quality jumps all over the place. Before the NZ launch of Netflix I could easily watch full HD on two devices while downloading several gigs of music/video no problem. Basically now HD Netflix is only useable when it's time for bed. I hope people leave Netflix in droves once the free trial is over.

DonGould
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  #1293570 29-Apr-2015 13:58
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50n0f508: Just to bring things back to the forum's subject. I am on Vodafone cable and was happily enjoying 100/10 (with the occasional slowdown) until Netflilx came along. Since then during peak hours my speed fluctuates wildly between 20mbps to 60mbps and ping is just as volatile. Netflix performance in particular has suffered; even with +50mbps I cannot get Netflix to display 1080p on PS3, the quality jumps all over the place. Before the NZ launch of Netflix I could easily watch full HD on two devices while downloading several gigs of music/video no problem. Basically now HD Netflix is only useable when it's time for bed. I hope people leave Netflix in droves once the free trial is over.


You say you have 50mbits of head room.  Seems like the proxy you're pulling off might be over loaded too?




Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


50n0f508
41 posts

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  #1293895 29-Apr-2015 21:52
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Anyone else on VF cable having these issues tonight? Getting about 20mbps when it should be 100



50n0f508
41 posts

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  #1293897 29-Apr-2015 21:55
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Anyone from Vodafone looking at this forum? I'm on hold with Vodafone technical support so I expect I might get through to somebody in 45min if I'm lucky.

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