Battery alternatives for ev or hybrid vehicles

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Battery alternatives for ev or hybrid vehicles

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611 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2101482 4-Oct-2018 12:47

@RUKI with your experience of EV's etc, do you think a aftermarket battery industry will develop? Eg for replacing/upgrading batteries in older leafs etc? It seems like the drivetrain and everything else with them is fine, they just need a higher capacity battery to get the longer range?

RUKI

1402 posts

Uber Geek

#2101516 4-Oct-2018 13:39

Delphinus:

@RUKI with your experience of EV's etc, do you think a aftermarket battery industry will develop? Eg for replacing/upgrading batteries in older leafs etc? It seems like the drivetrain and everything else with them is fine, they just need a higher capacity battery to get the longer range?

There are ppl in Auckland who are looking to put aftermarket modules inside. They want you to pay $15K for the pack, retain your old one and want you to be a UAT tester..

There are another ppl in Auckland who are trying to get damaged, still derivable low km Leafs from Japan with good batteries with the purpose of using just the battery for a quick swap and scrap the rest. That is an interesting option as I will be able to help them to reprogram that pack to the other car and that would be quick job (swap + reprog ~1 hour) for the genuine pack. No waiting.

Re: drive train in EV, particularly CVT Joint is vulnerable - with high torque joints have more wear in EV vs conventional car. Other parts could also be vulnerable and you have already seen rusty upper struts, which is just a beginning...

Re: Leaf in USA have a number of recalls according to the official tech support site, so assumption that the battery on wheels is free from defects would be naive.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2101521 4-Oct-2018 13:42

Hydrogen offers no real advantage over petrol. You can't fill at home and filling stations would need to be retrofitted. Toyota is plowing on with hydrogen against all sane logic at the expense of proper BEVs; it hasn't come good in Japan or California and they have thrown way way more money at hydrogen than we ever will. Hyundai is hedging its bets with hydrogen and BEV tech but everyone else is proceeding down the BEV road.

For all the energy that goes into creating hydrogen, you're better off just putting that straight into a battery and than trying to run it through what is still an inefficient ICE and all the moving parts and costs that come with them.

I'm not sure you'll ever get new 3rd party batteries into old Leafs as I'm fairly sure I've read (possibly even here) that there is some proprietary Nissan battery software that means that it can only work with the battery supplied. There is usually some talk about using the old Leaf batteries as domestic power banks like the Tesla Powerwall but I'm not sure if anyone is actually doing that yet. The viability of that will depend on what happens with Powerall 3, if/when that comes along and where it gets priced.

nunz

1421 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#2101577 4-Oct-2018 14:45

Honda seem to be putting alot of effort in over a long time:

The car: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-honda-clarity-fuel-cell-first-drive-review

Range of 78MPG ( 124km / gallon ) with 1 gallon equivalent to 1kg of hydrogen. 5.5 litre tank means 686km per tank - optimal.

They sell these: https://world.honda.com/FuelCell/HydrogenStation/SHS/ which makes 1.5Kg per day - so 180km per day capacity.

Trying to bring on line these: https://world.honda.com/environment/face/2017/case68/episode/episode01.html

Using electrolysis to remove the need for rare earths (they had a byrillium(i think) micro filter to break down water as one of their efforts a few years ago).

The sizing is about a 10foot container for the big option.

It makes it possible to run a car or other items using hydrogen - but hellishly expensive right now.

nunz

1421 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#2101580 4-Oct-2018 15:02

Looking at all the FUD about hydrogen on the net - the loss of energy, inefficiencies etc, what I dont see being said is that electrical production from the sun and hydro has an inexhaustible (in human years) supply and is clean. Who cares about inefficiencies if the initial product is darn near free.

NZSpides

155 posts

Master Geek

#2101585 4-Oct-2018 15:06

I have a 2012 leaf and I personally hope the guys in Auckland succeed with stage 2 of the replacement packs they are developing.

I know they have a lot of support and interest from overseas as well.

I suspect they will be getting me as a customer in a few years if they manage to get it running correctly.

Bluecars is the company that is doing the hard work to make the pack.

I would far prefer the idea of electricity storage over Hydrogen Fuel Cells or an alternative fuel for an ICE system.

Hydrogen storage is dangerous and prone with problems when transferring and storing large quantities is complicated and requires a lot of care.

Alternative fuels just starts the petrol issue all over again and produces pollution. Why not get rid of the problem while we can now?

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2101615 4-Oct-2018 16:24

GV27:

Hydrogen offers no real advantage over petrol. You can't fill at home and filling stations would need to be retrofitted. Toyota is plowing on with hydrogen against all sane logic

It offers several advantages: -

1) It's renewable

2) There is potential for distributed production using solar and water

3) Doesn't produce C02 - although the waste product is water which is also a greenhouse gas.

Storage, short range transport and 'recharge' is trivial with the correct materials.

Toyota is generally a conservative company, if they are doing something I pay attention.

Mike

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GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2101620 4-Oct-2018 16:35

MikeAqua:

GV27:

Hydrogen offers no real advantage over petrol. You can't fill at home and filling stations would need to be retrofitted. Toyota is plowing on with hydrogen against all sane logic

It offers several advantages: -

1) It's renewable

2) There is potential for distributed production using solar and water

3) Doesn't produce C02 - although the waste product is water which is also a greenhouse gas.

Storage, short range transport and 'recharge' is trivial with the correct materials.

Toyota is generally a conservative company, if they are doing something I pay attention.

Literally all of those things apply to BEV vehicles too. You're taking electricity and using it to produce another type of fuel, when in reality the electricity itself can be the fuel. Hydrogen has several extra steps that are entirely unnecessary when compared to a BEV.

Linuxluver

5828 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

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#2101641 4-Oct-2018 17:08

nunz:

Looking at all the FUD about hydrogen on the net - the loss of energy, inefficiencies etc, what I dont see being said is that electrical production from the sun and hydro has an inexhaustible (in human years) supply and is clean. Who cares about inefficiencies if the initial product is darn near free.

That's very true. It could be really clean.

Then you're just left with a 760 bar (760 atmospheres), extremely flammable hydrogen 'bomb' in your car. Don't waste money on airbags........

...and the cost.

Batteries may burn, too, but they aren't stored at 760 atmospheres of pressure.......which could do enormous damage if suddenly released, even if it didn't burn.

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Linuxluver

5828 posts

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#2101642 4-Oct-2018 17:14

GV27:

Literally all of those things apply to BEV vehicles too. You're taking electricity and using it to produce another type of fuel, when in reality the electricity itself can be the fuel. Hydrogen has several extra steps that are entirely unnecessary when compared to a BEV.

The answer is usually:

1. Greater range.

2. Less time filling.

Fair points, I guess. Though EV ranges now match hydrogen at the top end and batteries are getting cheaper all the time.

Faster filling? New EVs are able to charge at 100kw and higher......and can be charged at home most of the time anyway. A new Tesla Roadster will have 1,200km range....and take an hour to charge at a Tesla supercharger. Five years later, this will be close to the norm.

So unless you're 600km / day road warrior who never sleeps....there's no real advantage in hydrogen. Maybe for taxis that run 24/7 with drivers in shifts..... But we're moving away from the mass market. The hydrogen window is narrowing.

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Linuxluver

5828 posts

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#2101643 4-Oct-2018 17:19

NZSpides:

I have a 2012 leaf and I personally hope the guys in Auckland succeed with stage 2 of the replacement packs they are developing.

I know they have a lot of support and interest from overseas as well.

I suspect they will be getting me as a customer in a few years if they manage to get it running correctly.

Bluecars is the company that is doing the hard work to make the pack.

I would far prefer the idea of electricity storage over Hydrogen Fuel Cells or an alternative fuel for an ICE system.

Hydrogen storage is dangerous and prone with problems when transferring and storing large quantities is complicated and requires a lot of care.

Alternative fuels just starts the petrol issue all over again and produces pollution. Why not get rid of the problem while we can now?

The BlueCars solution is particularly attractive as it takes an old LEAF (2011 or 2012) that barely had 130km range when new.....and makes it a car with a 37kWh battery and roughly 300km range. For only $15K. You mean if I buy an old LEAF for $9,000.....and add $15,000....I get a great car with another 10 years of life and 300km range? Count me in. At 300km you're talking about Auckland to Wellington with maybe 2 x 20 min charging stops....if that. I use the loo more often than that.

This does also hint that conversion could be the way to go. Much cheaper than buying a new car.

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I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2101653 4-Oct-2018 17:43

Linuxluver:

NZSpides:

I have a 2012 leaf and I personally hope the guys in Auckland succeed with stage 2 of the replacement packs they are developing.

I know they have a lot of support and interest from overseas as well.

I suspect they will be getting me as a customer in a few years if they manage to get it running correctly.

Bluecars is the company that is doing the hard work to make the pack.

I would far prefer the idea of electricity storage over Hydrogen Fuel Cells or an alternative fuel for an ICE system.

Hydrogen storage is dangerous and prone with problems when transferring and storing large quantities is complicated and requires a lot of care.

Alternative fuels just starts the petrol issue all over again and produces pollution. Why not get rid of the problem while we can now?

The BlueCars solution is particularly attractive as it takes an old LEAF (2011 or 2012) that barely had 130km range when new.....and makes it a car with a 37kWh battery and roughly 300km range. For only $15K. You mean if I buy an old LEAF for $9,000.....and add $15,000....I get a great car with another 10 years of life and 300km range? Count me in. At 300km you're talking about Auckland to Wellington with maybe 2 x 20 min charging stops....if that. I use the loo more often than that.

This does also hint that conversion could be the way to go. Much cheaper than buying a new car.

This is pretty neat. Do you have a link? 300km is pretty much the most I need if I can rapid charge it safely.

RUKI

1402 posts

Uber Geek

#2101680 4-Oct-2018 18:54

Linuxluver:

....... particularly attractive as it takes an old LEAF (2011 or 2012) that barely had 130km range when new.....and makes it a car with a 37kWh battery and roughly 300km range. For only $15K. You mean if I buy an old LEAF for $9,000.....and add $15,000....I get a great car with another 10 years of life and 300km range? Count me in. At 300km you're talking about Auckland to Wellington with maybe 2 x 20 min charging stops....if that. I use the loo more often than that. ...This does also hint that conversion could be the way to go. Much cheaper than buying a new car.

People [I tend to believe, majority] can count money very well. $9K+$15K=$34

$32K (32 less that 34) is the price of the New Zealand New Hybrid Toyota Corolla (very frugal on gas - estimated ~4-5 L/100km)

I would like to know the name of that Champion who would make that epic decision: "forget about brand new Toyota when you can get old scrap value car (with most likely nearly dead suspension) and questionable battery quality being added to it for the same money? And Head unit in Japanese without navigation.. And no warranty or official support for the model.

For $28K you can get brand new hybrid Prius C or second hand from Japan (Aqua) for ~$15K.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

clive100

236 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2101689 4-Oct-2018 19:03

(People [I tend to believe, majority] can count money very well. $9K+$15K=$34)

Hmmm.... maybe 24K

tripper1000

1617 posts

Uber Geek

#2102091 5-Oct-2018 11:59

nunz: Looking at all the FUD about hydrogen on the net - the loss of energy, inefficiencies etc, what I dont see being said is that electrical production from the sun and hydro has an inexhaustible (in human years) supply and is clean. Who cares about inefficiencies if the initial product is darn near free.

Yeah, nah. Same theory says you shouldn't insulate your house.

Hydro and the sun might be inexhaustible, but it costs money to harness that energy and money is highly exhaustible. The people paying to harness than energy (me and you) care about inefficiencies.

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