26 people died this week on the road. When will action be taken?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › 26 people died this week on the road. When will action be taken?

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Hammered
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#2211716 6-Apr-2019 13:36

For anyone who doesn't know, there are actually Police staff tasked with dealing only with traffic and road policing issues. Unfortunately, probably not nearly enough.

ETA: of course, higher priority general duties jobs may require traffic staff to beef up numbers. But, their tasked job is to enforce the road rules and target driving offences, etc.

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macuser

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#2211723 6-Apr-2019 13:47

You guys seem to skimp over the fact that so many cars in NZ are so old they're missing all the modern safety improvements made in the last 10 years, the last 5 years especially.

Maybe we do have impatient and terrible drivers in NZ, but those impatient and terrible drivers are much less likely to cause themselves or others death if they were driving a much more modern and safe car.

Modern vehicles are not only stronger and have a more rigid vehicle cabin that doesn't crumple on impact, but also have much more effective airbags.

They also have features like lane keep assist, forward collision warning, automatic breaking.

Aredwood

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#2211798 6-Apr-2019 15:41

macuser:
You guys seem to skimp over the fact that so many cars in NZ are so old they're missing all the modern safety improvements made in the last 10 years, the last 5 years especially.

Maybe we do have impatient and terrible drivers in NZ, but those impatient and terrible drivers are much less likely to cause themselves or others death if they were driving a much more modern and safe car.

Modern vehicles are not only stronger and have a more rigid vehicle cabin that doesn't crumple on impact, but also have much more effective airbags.

They also have features like lane keep assist, forward collision warning, automatic breaking.

We dont even have any min standards for vehicles provided for employee usage. Worksafe still consider it perfectly OK to get your employees to drive a Mitsubishi L300 or similar forward control van. No airbags, no ABS brakes, chassis design that was released in 1983. The only safety feature they have is seatbelts. And you could still buy them brand new up to 2014.

Meanwhile the government had previously introduced frontal impact standards that used import cars had to comply with. Which were a complete farce, as the L300 was still allowed to be sold at the time. (what frontal impact standard, would a van that doesn't have airbags comply with?) Yet there were lots of cars which were then blocked from being able to be imported and registered for road use. Despite those cars having airbags and other safety features.

In saying the above, I'm actually against trying to force alot of older cars off the road. Mainly because they are often owned by people who dont have much money. But at least being personally owned cars, those people can decide when or if to upgrade them. But I'm strongly opposed to employers being allowed to provide unsafe death traps to their employees. Which dont even have safety features that were available 20 years ago.

shrub

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#2211804 6-Apr-2019 16:25

Vehicle safety has come along way in 20 years. I saw the picture of the crash outside Christchurch all the deaths came from the early 90's corona. The lady driving the ford ranger only had minor injuries.

Yes the ranger is bigger and much newer. If she was driving an early 90's nissan/toyota 4wd of that age there would of been another death.

Rikkitic

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#2211826 6-Apr-2019 16:52

Are there actually any reliable stats on the numbers of accidents/injuries/fatalities directly attributable to specific vehicles? As in, not just older cars do worse in collision tests, but they actually cause more collisions? I have a suspicion (don't know, of course) that older less safe cars may not actually be any worse in terms of number of accidents caused by vehicle malfunction. I don't doubt that the consequences are worse in an older car but do older cars actually cause more accidents? I think they are just a convenient target. I'm certain nearly all accidents are caused by driver error of some sort. How many unregistered, unwarranted, unsafe 40 year-old cars with bald tyres have actually caused accidents when the driver was doing nothing wrong (expect being behind the wheel of such a car, of course)? How many accidents have been prevented by six-monthly or annual safety checks?

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#2211868 6-Apr-2019 17:23

Rikkitic:

Are there actually any reliable stats on the numbers of accidents/injuries/fatalities directly attributable to specific vehicles? As in, not just older cars do worse in collision tests, but they actually cause more collisions? I have a suspicion (don't know, of course) that older less safe cars may not actually be any worse in terms of number of accidents caused by vehicle malfunction. I don't doubt that the consequences are worse in an older car but do older cars actually cause more accidents? I think they are just a convenient target. I'm certain nearly all accidents are caused by driver error of some sort. How many unregistered, unwarranted, unsafe 40 year-old cars with bald tyres have actually caused accidents when the driver was doing nothing wrong (expect being behind the wheel of such a car, of course)? How many accidents have been prevented by six-monthly or annual safety checks?

I fully agree. If we all drove 1960's wrecks, but were safe drivers, the only accidents would be when my wreck's brakes failed and ran into yours. If I drove an older car, its not likely to fall apart at every 8th intersection. Newer cars are faster, handle better, have all sorts of fancy traction controlly stuff, so I'll hammer it most times. All those facets aren't much help when at excessive speed, too much going on, I forgot to look right and hit a truck. Kids running from Police are the classic example of that. There are many reasons that people are hurt or die on the roads, but its the people that cause a collision that are the problem generally.

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#2211869 6-Apr-2019 17:24

Rikkitic:

Are there actually any reliable stats on the numbers of accidents/injuries/fatalities directly attributable to specific vehicles? As in, not just older cars do worse in collision tests, but they actually cause more collisions? I have a suspicion (don't know, of course) that older less safe cars may not actually be any worse in terms of number of accidents caused by vehicle malfunction. I don't doubt that the consequences are worse in an older car but do older cars actually cause more accidents? I think they are just a convenient target. I'm certain nearly all accidents are caused by driver error of some sort. How many unregistered, unwarranted, unsafe 40 year-old cars with bald tyres have actually caused accidents when the driver was doing nothing wrong (expect being behind the wheel of such a car, of course)? How many accidents have been prevented by six-monthly or annual safety checks?

Interesting point. Older cars causing more accidents ? I doubt it if they are well maintained. Causing more severe injuries ? very much so. e.g. steering wheel construction of the old plastic coated steel hoop. No airbags of course.

My first car, a 1954 Morris Minor, the front seats were hinged to lift forward, no seat locks and I hit a large solid fence post(long sober story). Though I had a shoulder seat belt on, which had been compulsory fitted, I still slide forward and banged my knees on the parcel tray under the steering wheel and my stomach went into the very hard steering wheel. Very loud ouch. 🤬 On the other hand my second car was a 1954 Humber Hawk Mark V which had a 6" x 4" cruciform box chassis, 1/8 inch thick sheet metal body and weighted over 1½ ton (about 1300kg). It also had large solid steel bumper bars. I would be driving along and challenge any Japanese vehicle to pick on me. 😁

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zenourn

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#2211870 6-Apr-2019 17:27

The road deaths on a weekly basis is effectively a Poisson distribution and although extremely unfortunate, 26 isn't completely unexpected. The total road deaths are at a similar level as the same time last year.

I drove from Christchurch to Kaikoura and back yesterday and there are still a lot of 30/50/60/80 km zones and a reasonable amount of freight traffic. Quite a few drivers were doing really stupid overtakes which were just pointless given that you then you get to a single-lane roadworks traffic light that you have to wait 5 mins for anyway.

macuser

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#2211875 6-Apr-2019 17:47

The amount of deaths and serious injuries significantly reduce with better safety equipment and driver aids in the vehicle.

In addition, since the 1980s (the good old days where everybody was such great drivers and no one died ^ /s) the number of deaths per 100,000 vehicles is now 30% of what it was.

Injuries are also 30% of what they were in the 1980s.

So we're either all much better drivers than we were almost 40 years ago, or roads and vehicles are much safer.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/mot-resources/road-safety-resources/road-deaths/annual-number-of-road-deaths-historical-information/

tdgeek

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#2211908 6-Apr-2019 19:36

macuser:

The amount of deaths and serious injuries significantly reduce with better safety equipment and driver aids in the vehicle.

In addition, since the 1980s (the good old days where everybody was such great drivers and no one died ^ /s) the number of deaths per 100,000 vehicles is now 30% of what it was.

Injuries are also 30% of what they were in the 1980s.

So we're either all much better drivers than we were almost 40 years ago, or roads and vehicles are much safer.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/mot-resources/road-safety-resources/road-deaths/annual-number-of-road-deaths-historical-information/

It was from the very early 1990's. What we can deduce is that you are correct. Seat belts were made compulsory on 1975 so its not that. Vehicles are safer. What we dont know is how many accidents were there? We know the effect per capita has dropped of deaths and serious injuries. Lets assume the per capita of "incidents" is the same. The effect on people has reduced , as you say, as cars are safer. But the fact that WE still cause accidents may not have changed. Not unless we have improved.

It may be that we have the same problem, but better cars have reduced the numbers, but people have still managed to create the same number of accidents. We haven't changed speed limits much, more motorway miles per year will help reduce accidents. Even then it may well be we are still the same problem, but other factors have reduced the annual numbers.

macuser

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#2211926 6-Apr-2019 21:00

tdgeek:

macuser:

The amount of deaths and serious injuries significantly reduce with better safety equipment and driver aids in the vehicle.

In addition, since the 1980s (the good old days where everybody was such great drivers and no one died ^ /s) the number of deaths per 100,000 vehicles is now 30% of what it was.

Injuries are also 30% of what they were in the 1980s.

So we're either all much better drivers than we were almost 40 years ago, or roads and vehicles are much safer.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/mot-resources/road-safety-resources/road-deaths/annual-number-of-road-deaths-historical-information/

It was from the very early 1990's. What we can deduce is that you are correct. Seat belts were made compulsory on 1975 so its not that. Vehicles are safer. What we dont know is how many accidents were there? We know the effect per capita has dropped of deaths and serious injuries. Lets assume the per capita of "incidents" is the same. The effect on people has reduced , as you say, as cars are safer. But the fact that WE still cause accidents may not have changed. Not unless we have improved.

It may be that we have the same problem, but better cars have reduced the numbers, but people have still managed to create the same number of accidents. We haven't changed speed limits much, more motorway miles per year will help reduce accidents. Even then it may well be we are still the same problem, but other factors have reduced the annual numbers.

I expect numbers of accidents will greatly decrease with computer aided driving / radar collision avoidance becoming common place in vehicles.

At a guess we're probably another 15 years from that being a thing that most New Zealanders have in their vehicle though.

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#2211934 6-Apr-2019 21:25

I know the family of the two that were killed here in Christchurch, A truck running a red light is what the reported cause is, I do not know why it ran the red light and I am sure that will come to light, Just a senseless waste of life at such a young age.

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zenourn

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#2211944 6-Apr-2019 22:02

JaseNZ:

I know the family of the two that were killed here in Christchurch, A truck running a red light is what the reported cause is, I do not know why it ran the red light and I am sure that will come to light, Just a senseless waste of life at such a young age.

Yes, a complete waste of life.

Unfortunately I've found in Christchurch you can't assume a green light means you have right of way. I've lost count the number of times I've seen cars and trucks decide that when a right-turning arrow turns red that it is still perfectly fine to enter the intersection and make the turn and often the on-coming cars have issues if they aren't watching.

Then a couple of times at bike crossing lights you watch drivers and get a sense they aren't going to stop for the red light - and yip, they just go straight through about where you'd be if you had gone across.

At times impatience, other times inattention. Changing behaviour seems to be really hard though.

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#2211987 6-Apr-2019 22:24

tehgerbil:

Honestly, driver attitude is largely to blame.

Sit at any stop sign anywhere in the country and you'd be lucky to see one in every 3 people actually come to a complete stop if there were no cars coming to make them stop regardless.

Sit at most intersections anywhere in the country and you'll see at least 1 red light runner every 5 minutes.

Sit at practically any busy intersection anywhere in the country and you'll see at least a dozen people cut off other drivers, causing them to take evasive action in a day.

Sit on any main road in the country and you'll see a driver texting/on their phone at least every 1 every 20 cars or so. Likewise not wearing their seatbelt.

And drive anywhere and you'll have people ignore the 2 second rule and tailgate you.

And if you think this doesn't happen you need to open your eyes.
Or get a dashcam, funny how having a permanent recording device makes you drive better and notice poor drivers more.

I've seen all of the above, right in front of police. I have never seen any police pull over any drivers for poor driving performed in their presence, they just don't care/have the resources to deal with it. This has largely emboldened people.

Kiwis are extremely entitled, arrogant drivers who continue to break the law with no consequences whatsoever.

I mean seriously rules and words are utterly useless unless you back them up with enforcement, and there's virtually no enforcement aside from the occasional 'crack down' and then it's back to status quo - do what whatever you like.

I would LOVE to see regular driving tests for ALL drivers. I can't believe I had to sit this difficult test to PROVE my right to drive, but I am surrounded by those who literally drove down the road with the local bobby and immediately got their license, but feel we have it "too easy".

But the pussies in government wouldn't dare alienate their core voting base, so continue to wring their hands and increase penalties while refusing to actually do anything concrete to address peoples attitudes.

Driving is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT and people seem to think otherwise.

+100000 This, it will continue to get worse and worse until ENFORCEMENT is taken place and if the police openly accept dashcam video to prosecute people.

mattwnz

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#2211997 6-Apr-2019 22:56

I think there are just too many bad an inconsiderate drivers, and their is very little policing of this type of thing. I was driving behind someone tonight over the rimutuka hill road, and they were driving about 40 over it. They didn't pull over in the slow driver bays to let cars pass, so there was a big line of people behind them. Then on the straights in the 80 zone they drove at 50-60 and were all over the road. I suspect they were drunk. But they were driving a ford falcon ute, so it could have been a farmer coming over from the wairarapa, as you don't see too many of those utes around wellington these days. We do also have a lot of really poor quality roads. Are there decent stats on what the causes of all the accidents are to pinpoint the main reasons? Speed and alcohol used to be one of the main ones. I suspect speed is still a major one, but also just poor driving. eg overtaking on yellow lines, or when there isn't at least 100m of visible space ahead. Then we have overseas tourists who have been known to be on the wrong side of the road, there needs to be testing there IMO before they can drive on NZ roads, especially if they are used to driving on the other side of the road. Also I remember when they used to have a sign that said 'the speed limit is not a target', yet you do still see people driving up the speed limit in conditions where they should drive slower.

One thing though is we do now have more drivers than ever on the road, and NZs population is now getting upward of 5 millions, and with cheaper cars we have far more young people driving, so by the number we are going to statistically have more crashes. I do see a lot of bad or crazy drivers who look very young, so not sure if driver training is very good these days either. When they changed the give way rules, perhaps they needed to get everyone to do a test on the rules, because many people don't know the new rules.

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