NZ's Cheapest EV This Week: $9,850

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Linuxluver

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#1725594 24-Feb-2017 11:49

dickytim:

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

Nothing makes a 200% increase in trip times worthwhile ... may as well bring back stage coaches

Or a Nissan LEAF. The fast charging infrastructure in NZ caters for them like nothing else. :-)

I could get to Wellington in a day easily once the fast chargers are in Cambridge or Tokoroa and, Taupo and Waiouru. The latter is under construction right now...and Unison want a fast charger in Taupo yesterday. The rest of the network required is already there.

What happens when the charging stations are full, i.e. you have to wait for other cars to finish charging?

The same as when you pull into a petrol station and all the pumps are full and there's a queue out onto the road (the former Caltex in Birkdale, Auckland any weekend morning).

However.....because most EVs charge at home the only EVs you're going to meet out at public chargers - especially the paid ones - are EVs from out of town. They generally want to get charged and get gone.

It happens sometimes.....but still relatively rare. Usually any wait is short. Like a petrol station......except you need charging stations FAR less often than petrol stations unless you're away from home.

To the extent it does happen you can reduce the risk by avoiding charging between 3pm and 6pm at free public fast chargers. I've found this is when people who haven't planned ahead tend to need a top-up.

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#1725596 24-Feb-2017 11:54

Linuxluver:

dickytim:

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

Nothing makes a 200% increase in trip times worthwhile ... may as well bring back stage coaches

Or a Nissan LEAF. The fast charging infrastructure in NZ caters for them like nothing else. :-)

I could get to Wellington in a day easily once the fast chargers are in Cambridge or Tokoroa and, Taupo and Waiouru. The latter is under construction right now...and Unison want a fast charger in Taupo yesterday. The rest of the network required is already there.

What happens when the charging stations are full, i.e. you have to wait for other cars to finish charging?

The same as when you pull into a petrol station and all the pumps are full and there's a queue out onto the road (the former Caltex in Birkdale, Auckland any weekend morning).

However.....because most EVs charge at home the only EVs you're going to meet out at public chargers - especially the paid ones - are EVs from out of town. They generally want to get charged and get gone.

It happens sometimes.....but still relatively rare. Usually any wait is short. Like a petrol station......except you need charging stations FAR less often than petrol stations unless you're away form home.

I think you are sounding pretty biased. I don't mean that to sound mean, but I am in an out of a petrol station in under 5 minutes, so if I had to wait for the guy in front of me etc, then it's probably 5 minutes x the number of cars. Charging a car to do 500KM isn't going to take 5 minutes.

I think it's well and good to extoll the benefits of electric, but you need to take the downsides on the chin. People either find it practical or they don't. It's not reasonable to suggest it's a solution for everyone.

Linuxluver

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#1725597 24-Feb-2017 11:58

networkn:

Linuxluver:

dickytim:

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

Nothing makes a 200% increase in trip times worthwhile ... may as well bring back stage coaches

Or a Nissan LEAF. The fast charging infrastructure in NZ caters for them like nothing else. :-)

I could get to Wellington in a day easily once the fast chargers are in Cambridge or Tokoroa and, Taupo and Waiouru. The latter is under construction right now...and Unison want a fast charger in Taupo yesterday. The rest of the network required is already there.

What happens when the charging stations are full, i.e. you have to wait for other cars to finish charging?

The same as when you pull into a petrol station and all the pumps are full and there's a queue out onto the road (the former Caltex in Birkdale, Auckland any weekend morning).

However.....because most EVs charge at home the only EVs you're going to meet out at public chargers - especially the paid ones - are EVs from out of town. They generally want to get charged and get gone.

It happens sometimes.....but still relatively rare. Usually any wait is short. Like a petrol station......except you need charging stations FAR less often than petrol stations unless you're away form home.

I think you are sounding pretty biased. I don't mean that to sound mean, but I am in an out of a petrol station in under 5 minutes, so if I had to wait for the guy in front of me etc, then it's probably 5 minutes x the number of cars. Charging a car to do 500KM isn't going to take 5 minutes.

I think it's well and good to extoll the benefits of electric, but you need to take the downsides on the chin. People either find it practical or they don't. It's not reasonable to suggest it's a solution for everyone.

I hear you.

Meeting another EV and having to wait to charge is also an exceptional circumstance......usually I'm in and out just as you describe.

I was comparing worst-case scenario to make the point, not because that's what happens all the time. Though.....check out Birkdale on a weekend morning. :-)

As downsides go.....this is a minor one - based on my personal experience. That's the point I was trying make.

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networkn

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#1725610 24-Feb-2017 12:04

Linuxluver:

I hear you.

Meeting another EV and having to wait to charge is also an exceptional circumstance......usually I'm in and out just as you describe.

I was comparing worst-case scenario to make the point, not because that's what happens all the time. Though.....check out Birkdale on a weekend morning. :-)

As downsides go.....this is a minor one - based on my personal experience. That's the point I was trying make.

Probably answered, too lazy to check, what range would 5 minutes including payment etc time, give you ? I mean obviously you just need enough to get home, and that's a big advantage electric has..

Maybe about 12-18 months ago I was in the USA and was listening to something, I don't recall what, and there was a guy asking another guy, what the single biggest thing he could think of in his generation was in terms of gaming changing proportions, and after a bit the asking guy said he considered it to be Elon Musks putting FREE Solar powered electric charging stations, all the way through America (At his own cost I believe). Initially, I didn't think that was true, but actually, when I thought about it more, I realized what a big deal that was.

If I could get an Electric Station Wagon with the handling, power and range of my BMW 3 Series Wagon (Diesel), for 70-100K, I would seriously consider it as an option for my next car, but I suspect it's a long way off, so I expect my next car, to be another of what I already have. There certainly wasn't anything practical for my wife when we looked at replacing her car this time around, with a dog and 2 kids to cater for.

dickytim

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#1725616 24-Feb-2017 12:11

I thought even at fast charge the cars take 30 min+ to charge, that is where my question, and it was about curiosity as much as anything else.

So I was asking if on a trip from Wellington to Auckland you could do it in a day, if you potentially had a couple of cars in front of you at the charging stations does that mean you'd have to wait an hour to charge, and then would you take another half an hour to charge?

I am happy to be corrected.

Linuxluver

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#1725756 24-Feb-2017 16:51

dickytim:

I thought even at fast charge the cars take 30 min+ to charge, that is where my question, and it was about curiosity as much as anything else.

So I was asking if on a trip from Wellington to Auckland you could do it in a day, if you potentially had a couple of cars in front of you at the charging stations does that mean you'd have to wait an hour to charge, and then would you take another half an hour to charge?

I am happy to be corrected.

It would depend on what car you had.

With a Tesla Model S 100D you would have 560km range....and would have to charge once - briefly - along the way. Provided the first charger encountered was further long your journey than the power required to complete it, then you could charge at any charger along the way as long as it was not so far from your destination you would run out of power......so if you found a charger busy and didn't want to wait....you'd drive to the next one (sound familiar?).....and so on until you HAD to charge.

With a Nissan LEAF 30kWh car you'd have about 170km range and would need to charge more frequently and would be more dependent on chargers being available when needed. My LEAF has - real-world - charged from 4% to 95% in 38 minutes. But far more commonly I would charge from 30% to 80% in about 15-20 mins, adding about 100km or so. That's because after 80% it slows down and I can cut my charging time overall by not wasting time charging beyond 80%......if there are sufficient chargers. This also helps reduce the chances of anyone else arriving when I'm in the middle of charging....and so on. This exactly what I have done when I drive Auckland to Opotiki and back on the same day....a 720km round trip.

Today, there are 2,600-ish EVs in NZ. (Last year at this time there were just over 1,000). About half of those are in Auckland.

If you were out on a road trip to Wellington and met two other EVs at the same charging station it would be cause to rejoice. I suppose it can happen......but not often so far, given the numbers. I drove Auckland to Wellington and back in December....and didn't have any problems waiting for chargers.

There will be another 50+ DC fast chargers at least by the end of the year....and Tesla just opened 4 superchargers at The Base / Te Awa in Hamilton yesterday....plus many non-Telsa "destination" chargers at 22kw and / or 30amp (depending on connection interface) provided by a diverse range of organisations.

I can ask you the same question: What if you arrived at the only petrol station for ages...and needed to fill up....and found 50 cars waiting. Rarely happens, but possible?

Exactly the same for EVs today.

Maybe next year with 4,000-5000 Evs on the road it will be a bigger issue.....but then there will also be more chargers. For most people in an everyday sense it's a non-issue because they charge at home.

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Linuxluver

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#1725768 24-Feb-2017 17:06

networkn:

Linuxluver:

I hear you.

Meeting another EV and having to wait to charge is also an exceptional circumstance......usually I'm in and out just as you describe.

I was comparing worst-case scenario to make the point, not because that's what happens all the time. Though.....check out Birkdale on a weekend morning. :-)

As downsides go.....this is a minor one - based on my personal experience. That's the point I was trying make.

Probably answered, too lazy to check, what range would 5 minutes including payment etc time, give you ? I mean obviously you just need enough to get home, and that's a big advantage electric has..

Maybe about 12-18 months ago I was in the USA and was listening to something, I don't recall what, and there was a guy asking another guy, what the single biggest thing he could think of in his generation was in terms of gaming changing proportions, and after a bit the asking guy said he considered it to be Elon Musks putting FREE Solar powered electric charging stations, all the way through America (At his own cost I believe). Initially, I didn't think that was true, but actually, when I thought about it more, I realized what a big deal that was.

If I could get an Electric Station Wagon with the handling, power and range of my BMW 3 Series Wagon (Diesel), for 70-100K, I would seriously consider it as an option for my next car, but I suspect it's a long way off, so I expect my next car, to be another of what I already have. There certainly wasn't anything practical for my wife when we looked at replacing her car this time around, with a dog and 2 kids to cater for.

I have charged for only 5 mins a few times. Here's one:

5:51 / 2.6 kWh Charge @ Thames (THDC1) $2.10

This gave me 2.6kWh of power....which is about 20km. It was opportunistic thing. Had to go to the loo and it was across the road from the charger....so pluggged in, did the business, then left.

More usually (looking at my list of paid charges on Charge.Net) I would charge for about 20 mins to add about 15kWh = 105km (ish...) for $8.65. This single example is representative of charges of approximately this duration.

It seems to work out at about 8c / km (using charge.net).....but some chargers are free, so the actual cost is probably half that....and home charging is about 2.6c / km.

Is it worth the delay? To me, it is. I'm willing to put up with this for the sake of zero emissions and the fun of driving an EV. They used to be in that order.....but the fun is now level-pegging. :-)

Plus they are a lot cheaper to run.....but well....yeah.

If you don't care about climate change or your money.....you drive a fossil-fuel car. ;-)

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Jeeves

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#1727758 28-Feb-2017 16:03

networkn:

Linuxluver:

dickytim:

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

Nothing makes a 200% increase in trip times worthwhile ... may as well bring back stage coaches

Or a Nissan LEAF. The fast charging infrastructure in NZ caters for them like nothing else. :-)

I could get to Wellington in a day easily once the fast chargers are in Cambridge or Tokoroa and, Taupo and Waiouru. The latter is under construction right now...and Unison want a fast charger in Taupo yesterday. The rest of the network required is already there.

What happens when the charging stations are full, i.e. you have to wait for other cars to finish charging?

The same as when you pull into a petrol station and all the pumps are full and there's a queue out onto the road (the former Caltex in Birkdale, Auckland any weekend morning).

However.....because most EVs charge at home the only EVs you're going to meet out at public chargers - especially the paid ones - are EVs from out of town. They generally want to get charged and get gone.

It happens sometimes.....but still relatively rare. Usually any wait is short. Like a petrol station......except you need charging stations FAR less often than petrol stations unless you're away form home.

I think you are sounding pretty biased. I don't mean that to sound mean, but I am in an out of a petrol station in under 5 minutes, so if I had to wait for the guy in front of me etc, then it's probably 5 minutes x the number of cars. Charging a car to do 500KM isn't going to take 5 minutes.

I think it's well and good to extoll the benefits of electric, but you need to take the downsides on the chin. People either find it practical or they don't. It's not reasonable to suggest it's a solution for everyone.

Right now - the number of RAPID charging stations is low. The number of slow charging stations in this country would number in the millions (Yes, millions. Because a wall socket is a potential charging station).

Capex to build a new gas station is easily in the 7 figures due to storage tanks, pumps and compliance costs. Capex to build a charge station with the same number of "pumps" would be probably 1/4 that of a gas station.

Petrol infrastructure has been in place for over 100 years and is built to serve 3 million odd cars.

I think you're looking at things a little short sighted here. Charge stations are low, but so are the number of EV's. The number of charge stations will easily keep up with the number of EV's as their population increases, so your argument of having full stations is going to be pretty moot.

There are many very valid reasons why an EV may not suit people yet (Such as your desire for a decent station wagon - fair enough) - but the number of charging stations and potential lines isn't a valid one.

Krishant007

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#1727772 28-Feb-2017 16:32

Why dont some service stations start offering electric chargers as well? I would love to see some servos with a couple of electric cars charging up while others are fueling up. Or maybe I am an idealist.

jarledb

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#1727810 28-Feb-2017 17:02

Just wait till you get this kind of stupidity in New Zealand: People that seem to think that a charging station = parking for EVs... A lot of Tesla owners in Norway seem to think thats how they are supposed to be used..

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wellygary

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#1727864 28-Feb-2017 18:30

Krishant007:
Why dont some service stations start offering electric chargers as well? I would love to see some servos with a couple of electric cars charging up while others are fueling up. Or maybe I am an idealist.

They do,
A large number of charge.nets locations are Z service stations

kiwirock

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#1727866 28-Feb-2017 18:33

I wonder how long before we have all wheel drive electric. And by that I mean an electric motor on each wheel with software that emulates the differential action to provide the ultimate traction when needed.

Also I wonder what kind of trailer weight you can tow with an EV like the LEAF?

Are the cars normal electrics still 12v? So one can add a brake controller, bypass relay unit for trailer wiring etc...

Linuxluver

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#1728041 1-Mar-2017 07:07

Krishant007:

Why dont some service stations start offering electric chargers as well? I would love to see some servos with a couple of electric cars charging up while others are fueling up. Or maybe I am an idealist.

Some do host fast chargers. Like the Z station in Dannemora and the BP in Pakuranga and the Gull station in Pine Hill in Auckland. But the first two aren't branded by them. The first is Charge.Net. The second is Vector and the third is actually a Gull EV charging station (not not a "fast" DC one - it does 32amp....so fast-ish AC) But Gull have recently been bought by (Australian) Caltex. Whereas NZ Caltex has sold its petrol stations. Confusing. No idea what will happen to the Gull EV charger.

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Linuxluver

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#1728046 1-Mar-2017 07:22

kiwirock:

I wonder how long before we have all wheel drive electric. And by that I mean an electric motor on each wheel with software that emulates the differential action to provide the ultimate traction when needed.

Also I wonder what kind of trailer weight you can tow with an EV like the LEAF?

Are the cars normal electrics still 12v? So one can add a brake controller, bypass relay unit for trailer wiring etc...

Tesla already offer all-wheel electric drive on their tip-top-end P100D Model S with 613 km range...... But you'll have to pay NZ$248,000 to get it......before adding other options (though with the P100D many of the other options are already included).

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Linuxluver

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#1729050 2-Mar-2017 17:36

Cheapest EVs on TradeMe this week:

Cheapest EV this week is (again) a Mitsi i-Miev for $9850. The lowest I've seen yet.

The cheapest Gen 1 (2011-2012) Nissan LEAF Model G (top spec level) is $11970 (10 bars of 12, so between approx. 72% and 78% original battery capacity) / 44,700km)

Generally, there are loads of decent-looking Gen 1 LEAF for under $15,000. Their range will likely be 100km of mixed hwy and city driving, or a bit less. You'd have to check any individual car, of course.

The cheapest Gen 2 (2013-2016) 24kWh battery Nissan LEAF is a 2014 for $18950 with 12 battery bars (so should be between between 85% and 100% original capacity).

There are lots of great looking Gen 2 LEAFS in the $19k-$22k price range. They will typically have good batteries and mixed highway and city range of anywhere from 120km to 150km....even more if driven on city streets instead of the highway. You'd have to check any individual car, of course.

The Cheapest Gen 2 30kWh (2016 or later) LEAF is $29995. A LEAF with 25% more battery than previous models and it charges a bit faster, too. Range is 170km or more mixed city and highway driving....and if you drive in the city only range can be well over 200kms on a charge. I've driven one from Taupo to Napier (either direction) on a single charge. There are several on TradeMe in the low $30Ks.

The Cheapest KIA Soul EV is $34,990. They have a similar range to a 30kWh Nissan LEAF.

The Cheapest Renault Zoe (22kWh) is $34,995. Range is about 150-180km. Great for a city car......

The Cheapest Renault Zoe (41kWh) is $39,990. This EV has an amazing range of 300km on a charge. That's Auckland to Tauranga......and you'd still have most of 100km range left. Or Taupo to Napier....and back...on one charge. I'd buy one of these in a heartbeat for a city and regional driver. The only drawback is they only AC charge (22kw for sure and maybe 43kw if they have to option) so can't use any of the DC fast chargers around. But they can charge from industrial 3-phase power, which is very common, whereas few other Evs can. Plus, the WEL fast chargers (Raglan, Te Kauwhata and Maui St, Te Rapa) all have 43kw AC charging as do the Unison chargers in Napier and Hastings and the Horizons charger in Whakatane as a 22kw AC charging port....so across Waikato, BoP and to Hawkes Bay, you're covered. Of course you'd normally just charge at home or overnight at your hotel.

The cheapest EV van is a Nissan e-NV200 2014 (24kWh battery) for $31,999

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