Do we have an excess of road policing in New Zealand?

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#1405024 13-Oct-2015 13:57

andrew027:
Geektastic: Repeat offenders should see their cars impounded and sold off, their licences cancelled and have to begin the entire licensing process again as if they were 16.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I'd love to see repeat offenders permanently lose their vehicles. Unfortunately cancelling their driver licence doesn't work as you can often read of people caught (say) driving drunk while their licence is already suspended for repeatedly driving drunk. Other than jail, how do you keep them off the road?

Why other than jail?
Jail would be a good place to send repeat offenders.

graemeh

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#1405028 13-Oct-2015 14:03

Geektastic: We should also require HGV's to have tachometers in the cab to monitor driver rest, vehicle speeds and so on.

Why not require this for all vehicles? It is not just truck drivers who get speed or tired and have crashes. Truck drivers also have legal restrictions on how much they can drive before resting and how much they can drive in a day.

ScuL

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#1405042 13-Oct-2015 14:28

Relevant to what's been suggested above.. here's a direction conversion of all traffic violations & mechanical faults that will result in a fine in The Netherlands; converted to NZD:

Traffic violations
No insurance           $1,000.00
Driving on the hard shoulder           $672.73
Driving with a revoked license           $672.73
Driving without a license           $672.73
Parking in a disabled bay           $672.73
Unnecessary use of horn           $672.73
Ignoring a stop sign           $672.73
Overtaking on pedestrian xing           $672.73
Driving under influence           $654.55
Tailgating           $509.09
Undertaking           $418.18
Overtaking on sold lines           $418.18
Driving through a red light           $418.18
Not giving way            $418.18
Not using handsfree car kit           $418.18
Ignoring railway warning lights     $418.18
Refusing breathalyser           $418.18
Passengers in not-fit-for-purpose areas           $254.55 up to $418.18
Not wearing a seatbelt           $254.55
Child <12 in front seat            $254.55
Failing to place danger triangle at emergency site           $254.55
Making a u-turn when not allowed           $254.55
Driving on a bus lane           $254.55
Stopping endangering others           $254.55
Driving without WOF           $236.36
Driving license left at home           $163.64
Turning without indicating           $163.64
Ignoring motorway ramp lights           $163.64
Cutting through military parade or funeral party           $163.64
Illegal parking           $163.64
Ignoring indicated driving direction           $163.64
Driving with illegible rego           $81.82   up to $236.36

Technical faults
Tyres: insufficient profile           $254.55 up to $854.55
Exceeding vehicle load           $254.55    up to $854.55
Failing brake lights           $254.55
Failing exhaust           $254.55
Illegible plates           $236.36
Failing indicators           $163.64
Failing lights           $81.82

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

gzt

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#1405274 13-Oct-2015 21:49

Allowing a small amount for a higher standard of living in the Netherlands not much difference on average.

Compulsory insurance is one of thise things that sounds fair and equitable, but in practice the only thing it will do for the people who are currently insured is increase their premiums.

When you start thinking about it there are many situations like this. Should supermarkets be required to have insurance because they allow customers to take trolleys into the car parking area? The list of things requiring will go on and on.

That would be good because it would require supermarkets to invest in rubber trollies. ; ).

jarledb

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#1405282 13-Oct-2015 22:09

gzt:
Should supermarkets be required to have insurance because they allow customers to take trolleys into the car parking area? The list of things requiring will go on and on.

Most large businesses that deal with the general public in any way will have liability insurance. Its part of the cost of operating a business. So wouldn't be surprised if supermarkets are insured for something major happing in their carpark that they could be liable for.

The argument that the premiums would be higher seems strange to me. Its not like this is not a cost that has to be handled by the insurance companies in NZ today. If anything, everyone being required to have insurance should get the costs down, because some of the losses they are making from having to cover uninsured drivers that can't pay for themselves would be covered by the premiums.

Please explain the logic behind higher premiums and feel free to give me a link that shows that has been the case anywhere else?

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ScuL

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#1405285 13-Oct-2015 22:25

gzt: Allowing a small amount for a higher standard of living in the Netherlands not much difference on average.

Not really, wages are lower and taxes are much higher compared to NZ.

The main reason I posted this is because it goes back to the point that NZ police is very much focused on pulling people over for speed.
Red light offences, picking the wrong lane, or mechanical faults like broken lighting will hardly ever result into a fine
Going back to the first post, I don't think NZ has an excess of road policing. It has an excess of speed policing but a lack of policing for other violations..

:)

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

Geektastic

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#1405290 13-Oct-2015 22:31

graemeh:
Geektastic: We should also require HGV's to have tachometers in the cab to monitor driver rest, vehicle speeds and so on.

Why not require this for all vehicles? It is not just truck drivers who get speed or tired and have crashes. Truck drivers also have legal restrictions on how much they can drive before resting and how much they can drive in a day.

Many modern vehicles already have it - and the information can be requested by legal bodies.

However normal motorists are not subject to working hours restrictions, whereas HGV drivers are - and that is part of what a tacho measures. NZ is unusual in not having such a requirement.

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Geektastic

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#1405292 13-Oct-2015 22:38

DizzyD:
andrew027:
Geektastic: Repeat offenders should see their cars impounded and sold off, their licences cancelled and have to begin the entire licensing process again as if they were 16.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I'd love to see repeat offenders permanently lose their vehicles. Unfortunately cancelling their driver licence doesn't work as you can often read of people caught (say) driving drunk while their licence is already suspended for repeatedly driving drunk. Other than jail, how do you keep them off the road?

Why other than jail?
Jail would be a good place to send repeat offenders.

The downside would be that we'd have to pay for them to be there of course.

There are cheaper alternatives: if the penalty for drink driving was summary execution at the roadside, how many people would do it, I wonder? ;-)

Part of the problem - at least with the perpetrators one sees on TV 'follow the police' shows - is a complete lack of any sense of shame or wrongdoing. So often they are merely rude, belligerent, flippant or giggling in a particularly girly way as if their every action is one of jocular hilarity rather than crass stupidity.

How people can reach adulthood with so little respect for themselves, the law or the police is a mystery to me.

MikeB4

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#1405345 14-Oct-2015 06:51

Geektastic:
DizzyD:
andrew027:
Geektastic: Repeat offenders should see their cars impounded and sold off, their licences cancelled and have to begin the entire licensing process again as if they were 16.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I'd love to see repeat offenders permanently lose their vehicles. Unfortunately cancelling their driver licence doesn't work as you can often read of people caught (say) driving drunk while their licence is already suspended for repeatedly driving drunk. Other than jail, how do you keep them off the road?

Why other than jail?
Jail would be a good place to send repeat offenders.

The downside would be that we'd have to pay for them to be there of course.

There are cheaper alternatives: if the penalty for drink driving was summary execution at the roadside, how many people would do it, I wonder? ;-)

Part of the problem - at least with the perpetrators one sees on TV 'follow the police' shows - is a complete lack of any sense of shame or wrongdoing. So often they are merely rude, belligerent, flippant or giggling in a particularly girly way as if their every action is one of jocular hilarity rather than crass stupidity.

How people can reach adulthood with so little respect for themselves, the law or the police is a mystery to me.

The path to adulthood is not just a time line, people who drink and drive and generally break laws have not reached adulthood.

Kyanar

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#1405569 14-Oct-2015 11:12

Geektastic:

Many modern vehicles already have it - and the information can be requested by legal bodies.

However normal motorists are not subject to working hours restrictions, whereas HGV drivers are - and that is part of what a tacho measures. NZ is unusual in not having such a requirement.

No it isn't. I can't think of a single jurisdiction which actually has this requirement except for trucks and other logistics vehicles.

Geektastic

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#1405573 14-Oct-2015 11:14

Kyanar:
Geektastic:

Many modern vehicles already have it - and the information can be requested by legal bodies.

However normal motorists are not subject to working hours restrictions, whereas HGV drivers are - and that is part of what a tacho measures. NZ is unusual in not having such a requirement.

No it isn't. I can't think of a single jurisdiction which actually has this requirement except for trucks and other logistics vehicles.

Which is exactly the point I made originally - we should have it for HGV drivers.

scuwp

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#1405586 14-Oct-2015 11:27

Geektastic:
Kyanar:
Geektastic:

Many modern vehicles already have it - and the information can be requested by legal bodies.

However normal motorists are not subject to working hours restrictions, whereas HGV drivers are - and that is part of what a tacho measures. NZ is unusual in not having such a requirement.

No it isn't. I can't think of a single jurisdiction which actually has this requirement except for trucks and other logistics vehicles.

Which is exactly the point I made originally - we should have it for HGV drivers.

We do. Commercial drivers must complete logbooks (which are subject to audit) and have work time limits they must adhere to. The company managers are also responsible to ensure work time limits are compliaed with and they are not sending fatigued drivers out on the road. the penalties are quite steep in both cases. GPS fleet monitoring software is probably the ultimate replacement in time. Tachographs are not foolproof and like logbooks are fundamentally obsolete with electronic technology. As always the legislation takes a few decades to catch up.

On the matter of car drivers and fatigue, there are no hard and fast requirements of course, however fatigue will be investigated as a causative factor in the event of a crash, and could add to the penalty on conviction.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

andrew027

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#1405713 14-Oct-2015 14:53

DizzyD:
andrew027:
Geektastic: Repeat offenders should see their cars impounded and sold off, their licences cancelled and have to begin the entire licensing process again as if they were 16.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I'd love to see repeat offenders permanently lose their vehicles. Unfortunately cancelling their driver licence doesn't work as you can often read of people caught (say) driving drunk while their licence is already suspended for repeatedly driving drunk. Other than jail, how do you keep them off the road?

Why other than jail?
Jail would be a good place to send repeat offenders.

Agree - but our justice system seems to prefer keeping offenders on the streets (often literally).

Geektastic

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#1405985 14-Oct-2015 22:06

scuwp:
Geektastic:
Kyanar:
Geektastic:

Many modern vehicles already have it - and the information can be requested by legal bodies.

However normal motorists are not subject to working hours restrictions, whereas HGV drivers are - and that is part of what a tacho measures. NZ is unusual in not having such a requirement.

No it isn't. I can't think of a single jurisdiction which actually has this requirement except for trucks and other logistics vehicles.

Which is exactly the point I made originally - we should have it for HGV drivers.

We do. Commercial drivers must complete logbooks (which are subject to audit) and have work time limits they must adhere to. The company managers are also responsible to ensure work time limits are compliaed with and they are not sending fatigued drivers out on the road. the penalties are quite steep in both cases. GPS fleet monitoring software is probably the ultimate replacement in time. Tachographs are not foolproof and like logbooks are fundamentally obsolete with electronic technology. As always the legislation takes a few decades to catch up.

On the matter of car drivers and fatigue, there are no hard and fast requirements of course, however fatigue will be investigated as a causative factor in the event of a crash, and could add to the penalty on conviction.

We don't. A log book can be faked. A digital tacho cannot (at least not without immensely sophisticated skills).

"Advantages of digital tachographs

The digital data stored by the tachograph system can be analysed by computer and infringements automatically identified.

Digital data is encrypted and cannot be altered or deleted by the driver once stored on the card or in the head.

Information is more explicitly defined in digital form and is less likely to be misinterpreted. When an analogue chart is visually analysed, a margin of error is present, dependent on the quality of the recording and the skill level of the analyst."

Jase2985

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#1407047 15-Oct-2015 07:53

you are assuming that every truck driver out there is dishonest

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