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freitasm

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  #1289717 22-Apr-2015 19:39
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SaltyNZ:
surfisup1000: My point is that the context matters with respect to whether it is assault, but I suppose such complicated subtleties are lost on people with such black and white views. 

Thankfully some of the people here are not judges. You'd end up with 3/4 of the nation in jail and the other 1/4 fleeing the country. 


Did you read what I wrote? I said that he should privately apologise and that should be the end of it. But I do stand by my belief that the man who wants to represent New Zealand to the world shouldn't act like some idiot who thinks its a great giggle to pull women's hair in public.

Bill Clinton might have been able to pull it off, but I don't think JK's in quite the same league, personality-wise. :)


So true. Different abilities and situations. I think find he's got a mistress would be more easily accepted than this.

jonathan18:
Tinshed: The worst of this is the sanctimony of those piling on John Key simply because they don't like him or support his government. It is thinking the worst of someone you don't already like and not even trying to see the nuances of the situation. People are playing this as politics. There is very little concern for the victim in all of this. That tells you a lot about those criticising John Key.  Don't get me wrong, John Key has behaved inappropriately and it isn't OK what he did. But please, spare me the high-horse, sanctimonious hypocrisy of the self-righteous on display.


For me this isn't a left/right issue, and I'd be equally damning of any politician of any persuasion in this same situation.

That it is yet another example of this particular politician minimising his or his ministers' (demonstrably stupid) actions does, however, point towards a real lack of moral compass. Time will tell if these begin to snowball into meaningful public disillusionment with this government.


I wonder what we will be reading in books 20 years from now about current characters.





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MikeB4
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  #1289719 22-Apr-2015 19:43
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I am expecting some diversions to occur to deflect attention from this issue

DaveB
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  #1289723 22-Apr-2015 19:47
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KiwiNZ:
DaveB:
KiwiNZ:
networkn:


If there is no repercussions for his actions it will be seen as tacit approval of his actions by others in our society. He chose to be the Nations Leader therefore he must act accordingly.


He has had ramifications but not as extreme as you'd suggest.

Your suggestion that the nation is now going to start pulling hair and expecting it's ok, is patently ridiculous and if you don't believe me, I challenge you to ask the next 10 people you see the following question, and report back the answers.

"Now that John Key has pulled the hair of a waitress and the only consequence was the requirement for a few bottles of wine and an apology, will you now proceed to pull hair and expect it's ok"



I guess you have no idea how long and how hard the battle against sexual harassment has been.



Just asking Mike, because I have watched with a sense of sadness at the many threads you have participated in - with an incredulous low level of tolerance and an obvious inability to consider for a moment in time, another's point of view  - Do you feel that you are one of the many people that "feel that they are oppressed by today's society"?

Such left wing intolerance that has pervaded today's society scares me. I am asking this because this is an open forum and, trust me, I am trying to understand, to, at least understand your vocal and dictatorial stance.


I just about sprayed coffee over my screen, left wing?? Me?? That is really funny.


Glad to see it gave you a laugh!

Regardless, you have not answered my question. Maybe I should have rephrased my question to be a little more specific and ask "Why do you feel such a nanny-state mentality is correct?"

Only "Nanny-State" supporters would jump onto a 'perceived' bandwagon to shout "sexual harassment" in a situation like this, or, well ................. lefties.  



benokobi
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  #1289724 22-Apr-2015 19:47
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KiwiNZ: I am expecting some diversions to occur to deflect attention from this issue


Well ANZAC is coming up and all that so that will divert some attention away.

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  #1289753 22-Apr-2015 20:27
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This is all got out of hand.

What we have is a waitress refusing to be identified making claims about the PM in a politically charged left wing blog. It is clear what the PM did was weird, but he does a lot of things that I think are weird which probably do not detract from the way in which he does his job.

This woman's blog is well written and obviously has had some help with its clever construction, but if it was a serious act as a lot of you are suggesting her employer would have stepped in and/or she would have made an official complaint. Its a busy cafe, why havnt others all leapt to her defense who witnessed the events. Reemember this happened in front of the PM's family and staff!!

Personally I would like to see someone take a private prosecution against the PM here so we can actually see/hear all the evidence. Was it a tug? Was it a pull? Was it a touch....? What was the intent? How genuine was the apology?

Surely, after what seems like a genuine and timely apology we should all move onto items that actually matter, rather than issues where individuals attempt to seek political gain  from such a minor incident.

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  #1289774 22-Apr-2015 21:11
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mattbush: Surely, after what seems like a genuine and timely apology we should all move onto items that actually matter, rather than issues where individuals attempt to seek political gain  from such a minor incident.


So, what's it like working in the PM's office? ;-P




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freitasm

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  #1289775 22-Apr-2015 21:13
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Way to represent New Zealand. The PM is on his way to Turkey for first world war commemorations while this shows up on The Guardian.




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Tinshed
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  #1289791 22-Apr-2015 21:37
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freitasm: Way to represent New Zealand. The PM is on his way to Turkey for first world war commemorations while this shows up on The Guardian.


For the life of me, I can't work out how this could happen.  The PM clearly planned his indiscretion and subsequent publicity to cause maximum embarrassment to New Zealand at this historic occassion. What a doofus.




Tinshed
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  #1289810 22-Apr-2015 22:13
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Women working in cafés and the service industry have to put up with this kind of behaviour from idiot men who are in a position of power over them all the time.

If you wouldn't do it to a person of equal privilege, like John Key to Tony Abbott, don't do it to anyone else.


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  #1289813 22-Apr-2015 22:15
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DaveB: Glad to see it gave you a laugh!

Regardless, you have not answered my question. Maybe I should have rephrased my question to be a little more specific and ask "Why do you feel such a nanny-state mentality is correct?"

Only "Nanny-State" supporters would jump onto a 'perceived' bandwagon to shout "sexual harassment" in a situation like this, or, well ................. lefties.  


"Why do you feel such a nanny-state mentality is correct?" - How is this relevant to this topic? How is this question relevant to a PRIME MINISTER of a country, keep on pulling someone hair despite being told not to?

Remember, the Prime Minister has not denied the version of the story. He accept it.  

The way how I see it with this issue, if someone occupy a higher position eg :teacher/doctor/boss at work, if they do pull the hair belongs to students/patient/employee repeatedly despite being told to stop, they will be punished. I bet if a regular customer that frequent the cafeteria pull the waitress hair - he will be kicked out of the shop!

This is a prime minister - highest position in the country, behaving inappropriately to a waitress.


My main issues:

1. He kept on pulling her hair many times despite being told not to. (John Key has not denied the given version)

2. I am disappointed that the cafe management did not approach the customer and told him to stop harassing the employee.


Please, if you are not capable to discuss - don't start calling people lefties, nanny state etc. It is pointless, meaningless, and just show your lack of understanding.



blakamin
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  #1289819 22-Apr-2015 22:28
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Get him to knock back a schooner of VB and all will be forgotten!

Apparently that makes you a binge drinker.

JWR

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  #1289830 22-Apr-2015 22:45

surfisup1000:
JWR: 

Well perform this simple thought experiment...

What would happen to you if you repeatedly pulled a female police officer's ponytail?



That is not a thought experiment, it is a stupid analogy and a completely different situation but you know that I think. 


It isn't even an analogy (stupid or not). It is exactly the same situation with different people.

I watched TV3's coverage of the event earlier tonight. They had a quick shot of female police officer with a long ponytail. Point made I think.

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  #1289835 22-Apr-2015 23:01
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Lias:
mattbush: Surely, after what seems like a genuine and timely apology we should all move onto items that actually matter, rather than issues where individuals attempt to seek political gain  from such a minor incident.


So, what's it like working in the PM's office? ;-P


I'm a bit over the hill for that.

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  #1289839 22-Apr-2015 23:05
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nakedmolerat: Please, if you are not capable to discuss - don't start calling people lefties, nanny state etc. It is pointless, meaningless, and just show your lack of understanding.


Amen! 

It seems that for some it's easier to simply start throwing around such words (as apparent insults) - or use farcical hyperbole to (mis)represent the view they disagree with, thereby making that view appear to be outrageously stupid - than engaging in a constructive discussion/debate. Always easier to attack the person than the argument I guess...

That said, I'm happy to wear the label 'lefty', so feel free to dismiss my views accordingly if you're that way inclined!

surfisup1000
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  #1289841 22-Apr-2015 23:09
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JWR:

It isn't even an analogy (stupid or not). It is exactly the same situation with different people.

I watched TV3's coverage of the event earlier tonight. They had a quick shot of female police officer with a long ponytail. Point made I think.



You've made no point at all other than to say you can't go running up to some random policewoman walking along the street and tug her hair (your straw man case).  

You are arguing the straw man case you constructed instead of the original case.  What if the police woman was your sister or best friend? But according to you the context does not matter as it is the action that counts. ie, it is just as unacceptable to tug a complete strangers hair as it is to do the same to someone familiar. Very unsophisticated view in my opinion. 

You should argue why you think JK should be convicted of assault for what he did and in the context of where/when/who.    Not whether it is acceptable to pull a random policewomans hair. 



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