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Networkn
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#2310713 4-Sep-2019 16:27

gulfa:

Perhaps it is time for you moaners to list all the things that this government has done to affect you personally. All political parties make errors or do things we don't agree with. I am amazed at how much time some of you spend on Social Media Why don't you go an volunteer your service to help others instead of bitching all the time or make yourselves available for a political party. 20,000 posts on this site must work out at hundred of hours of time. Not many working people could do this. Also look at some of the good things that have happened. From someone who has low standards???

So, instead of discussing the issues yourself, you have taken time from your busy schedule to passive aggressively criticize other peoples discussions. Hopefully you feel better now you've had your bi-annual tsk tsk session at how others discuss issues that are important to them.

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#2310717 4-Sep-2019 16:58

Hard to complain about the responses. It was over zealous, it did get the votes, and as a plan, it was already too late. I do believe in a Govt run scheme, the market doesn't work for many people.

I'd like to know what National would have done for affordable housing. Both in the 9 years and the last 3 had they been in power. While its for to point the finger for KB, what was the alternative policy that would have fixed everything?

GV27

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#2310719 4-Sep-2019 17:04

gulfa:

Perhaps it is time for you moaners to list all the things that this government has done to affect you personally. All political parties make errors or do things we don't agree with. I am amazed at how much time some of you spend on Social Media Why don't you go an volunteer your service to help others instead of bitching all the time or make yourselves available for a political party. 20,000 posts on this site must work out at hundred of hours of time. Not many working people could do this. Also look at some of the good things that have happened. From someone who has low standards???

So you're prepared to hold random internet users to a higher standard than politicians who manage to duck and dive accountability for misleading the electorate and managing to snag themselves a cabinet salary and the perks that come with it?

Because last I checked, the politicians were meant to accountable in democratic societies, not the people.

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#2310721 4-Sep-2019 17:07

tdgeek:

I'd like to know what National would have done for affordable housing. Both in the 9 years and the last 3 had they been in power. While its for to point the finger for KB, what was the alternative policy that would have fixed everything?

Probably rolled out the Axis programme to other areas? The HLC and Northcote development was probably the way forward. National lacked the desire to make it happen though, which is a shame because they actually did far more for affordable housing than Kiwibuild managed to achieve. But no one was prepared to talk about it, and just kept insisting they were doing "literally nothing".

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#2310734 4-Sep-2019 17:16

GV27:

tdgeek:

I'd like to know what National would have done for affordable housing. Both in the 9 years and the last 3 had they been in power. While its for to point the finger for KB, what was the alternative policy that would have fixed everything?

Probably rolled out the Axis programme to other areas? The HLC and Northcote development was probably the way forward. National lacked the desire to make it happen though, which is a shame because they actually did far more for affordable housing than Kiwibuild managed to achieve. But no one was prepared to talk about it, and just kept insisting they were doing "literally nothing".

Ive only heard about bagging KB from them, and that there was no housing crisis. No answers. Im not sure what they did for affordable housing, it was market based. Base 3 BR homes there isn't much money in them. IIRC when someone quoted total builds, the number of base 3BR was pretty small, 5% or 20%, cannot recall. Im surpluses this reset didn't include an overall attack bringing in social housing as thats been busy adding good numbers in the background. You can then start converting social housing to private housing.

GV27

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#2310747 4-Sep-2019 18:06

tdgeek:

Ive only heard about bagging KB from them

It wasn't "bagging" Kiwibuild, it was questioning what version of reality it was supposedly possible in.

It never was, as we now have had confirmed. The problem is we had three election campaigns of no real scrutiny of it and media who were happy to get caught up in leadership-driven hype as opposed to the pure fantasy of what was being promised.

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#2310751 4-Sep-2019 18:44

GV27:

tdgeek:

Ive only heard about bagging KB from them

It wasn't "bagging" Kiwibuild, it was questioning what version of reality it was supposedly possible in.

It never was, as we now have had confirmed. The problem is we had three election campaigns of no real scrutiny of it and media who were happy to get caught up in leadership-driven hype as opposed to the pure fantasy of what was being promised.

The boom killed affordable housing. It doesnt exist now.

About 30,000 new builds a year occur. Affordables are a low percentage of total builds as no one wants to build them and not many can afford them. End of the day there is a real affordable housing crisis, no matter how many Govts in the past are to blame. You cant replace KB with another scheme to build the x number of affordable houses that are needed. Its too high now. Had prices not been so high, KB probably could have done a lot better, it never really created a macro economy in the building industry, it just picked away at bits and pieces. The core problem still exists, for Labour or National to deal with. Or not deal with.

Yes, its good to bleat about KB today, but no one ever wants to talk about the affordable housing crisis that still exists. At least someone tried. Should have done better, but in all honesty, once the boom was done, there was no market left, that was their mistake.

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GV27

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#2310776 4-Sep-2019 20:24

tdgeek:

GV27:

tdgeek:

Ive only heard about bagging KB from them

It wasn't "bagging" Kiwibuild, it was questioning what version of reality it was supposedly possible in.

It never was, as we now have had confirmed. The problem is we had three election campaigns of no real scrutiny of it and media who were happy to get caught up in leadership-driven hype as opposed to the pure fantasy of what was being promised.

The boom killed affordable housing. It doesnt exist now.

About 30,000 new builds a year occur. Affordables are a low percentage of total builds as no one wants to build them and not many can afford them. End of the day there is a real affordable housing crisis, no matter how many Govts in the past are to blame. You cant replace KB with another scheme to build the x number of affordable houses that are needed. Its too high now. Had prices not been so high, KB probably could have done a lot better, it never really created a macro economy in the building industry, it just picked away at bits and pieces. The core problem still exists, for Labour or National to deal with. Or not deal with.

Yes, its good to bleat about KB today, but no one ever wants to talk about the affordable housing crisis that still exists. At least someone tried. Should have done better, but in all honesty, once the boom was done, there was no market left, that was their mistake.

Meanwhile, the Axis ballots continue, as they have done for years now, still delivering those supposedly undeliverable affordable houses:

https://axisseries.co.nz/

Kiwibuild was literally never going to work. The price they initially proposed just pretended that land supply wasn't an issue and land costs weren't something they had to pay. They were called on it, like how they were going to deliver a $450,000 house when the land alone was going to be $400K. They doubled-down and insisted it was doable.

That wasn't possible in 2012 or whatever when they first proposed it, and it wasn't possible now. It didn't stop them campaigning on it. It was a political bait and switch and they know it, and it has nothing do with relative affordability; it just wasn't possible full stop.

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#2310792 4-Sep-2019 21:04

GV27:

Meanwhile, the Axis ballots continue, as they have done for years now, still delivering those supposedly undeliverable affordable houses:

https://axisseries.co.nz/

Kiwibuild was literally never going to work. The price they initially proposed just pretended that land supply wasn't an issue and land costs weren't something they had to pay. They were called on it, like how they were going to deliver a $450,000 house when the land alone was going to be $400K. They doubled-down and insisted it was doable.

That wasn't possible in 2012 or whatever when they first proposed it, and it wasn't possible now. It didn't stop them campaigning on it. It was a political bait and switch and they know it, and it has nothing do with relative affordability; it just wasn't possible full stop.

Axis is nationwide and delivering how many thousands of homes? It says "Things considered a luxury in other developments, such as double-glazing" I thought that was the current building code. 2 bedroom units for 550k? They are small, small land to reduce cost as they say, and most are glorified apartments, and thats all good, and it's a model, but is it a model that suits many young families?

If it wasnt possible in 2012 (it should have been, affordability was a lot better),but in 2019 Axis is rebuilding NZ the way it should have been? You can build an ok affordable 3BR house, but not everywhere. You can build apartments but not for everyone. And no one can or wants to, build masses of any of them.

It comes down to, do we want to have an affordable home policy or lets just flag it. Decades ago, housing was desirable, the Govt was behind it. Now its a market driven concept. The market is not compatible with small affordable houses, nor interested in the plight of those wanting to achieve ownership.

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#2310800 4-Sep-2019 21:27

Trying is doing your homework, research and planning, and setting achievable (even slightly optimistic) targets, ensuring the resources are available and then setting about executing said good plan. It failed because it was none of those things. It was a stupid plan to start with, when all the experts told them it wasn't feasible for the price they had indicated or on the scale that even a 10 year old could tell wasn't possible they ignored it. They campaigned on it, misleading voters (who really should have known better honestly), and then when they could see the wheels were coming off it, doubled down and refused to "reset" much earlier, wasting much more money than should have been. There are SO many fundamental flaws in Kiwibuild.

This Government did not try by any meaningful measure (nor do they deserve even a scarab of credit for that). It has essentially grabbed an entire massive pile of taxpayer money, put it in the middle of Eden Park and set it alight. Our transparent and accountable Government has also repeatedly ignored requests for what has been spent so far on Kiwibuild, but the truth will come out eventually.

Funnily enough no sign of an entirely appropriate apology for the foolhardy poorly planned approach to this policy.

Housing affordability is a problem in every popular city in the world. When I was in Milan, out of interests sakes I stopped at an inner city apartment open home. I spoke to the real estate agent. The place was a cold damp horrible apartment you'd be lucky if you found a dog living in NZ, and it was $1.2M euros (Agent expected to get closer to 1.5M). No carpark, no view, 1.5 bedrooms and 1 horrible bathroom with a kitchen you couldn't pay me to cook in and visible moisture on the walls. National isn't in power in Milan, nor Sydney nor Chicago, New York, London etc, so blaming National for house affordability is to break from reality. Did they *contribute*, yes, in my view by failing to restrict Foreign Ownership to only those who lived in NZ for example, or to limit anyone not born in NZ to one self tenanted property and 1 investment property, but to blame it all on the government is just crazy. Housing affordability is a simple equation between demand and supply.

There are affordable houses all over NZ, but we are a fussy group, we want to live in cities, want 5 double bedrooms, a view and lots of gadgets to fill every corner, along with nice cars to fill garages with, and unlike our parents, we aren't (usually) prepared to start humbly and work our way up as we can afford it. These are all contributing factors.

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#2310805 4-Sep-2019 21:39

It seems a little unbalanced to even attempt to supply affordable homes for purchase in this booming economy. As stated earlier somewhere what we are seeing is a direct result of the current economy over the last decade.

I would have thought it way more prudent of a Labour Government to drastically increase the number of HNZ properties that the less fortunate can occupy/rent. Feeding the frenzy that ALL kiwis must own their own home is just dumb, especially in these times.

With so many low/medium income earners with large low interest loans, trouble will come sooner or later with interest rate rises. Some of the wiser in this community will know that interest rates will rise sooner or later.

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#2310809 4-Sep-2019 21:54

I expect before long there will be another market correction as interest rates increase and people are forced from their homes as a result of being over committed. The kids of friends of mine have just purchased a house which is JUST (and I mean JUST) within their means. Banks couldn't WAIT to get them a loan and despite their parents best attempts and even my own, they wouldn't listen to reason regarding how tight things were wound. They are living in an alternate reality where no one ever loses a job, appliances don't fail, or unexpected car repairs occur or that interest rates never climb.

tdgeek

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#2310810 4-Sep-2019 21:58

networkn:

Trying is doing your homework, research and planning, and setting achievable (even slightly optimistic) targets, ensuring the resources are available and then setting about executing said good plan. It failed because it was none of those things. It was a stupid plan to start with, when all the experts told them it wasn't feasible for the price they had indicated or on the scale that even a 10 year old could tell wasn't possible they ignored it. They campaigned on it, misleading voters (who really should have known better honestly), and then when they could see the wheels were coming off it, doubled down and refused to "reset" much earlier, wasting much more money than should have been. There are SO many fundamental flaws in Kiwibuild.

This Government did not try by any meaningful measure (nor do they deserve even a scarab of credit for that). It has essentially grabbed an entire massive pile of taxpayer money, put it in the middle of Eden Park and set it alight. Our transparent and accountable Government has also repeatedly ignored requests for what has been spent so far on Kiwibuild, but the truth will come out eventually.

Funnily enough no sign of an entirely appropriate apology for the foolhardy poorly planned approach to this policy.

Housing affordability is a problem in every popular city in the world. When I was in Milan, out of interests sakes I stopped at an inner city apartment open home. I spoke to the real estate agent. The place was a cold damp horrible apartment you'd be lucky if you found a dog living in NZ, and it was $1.2M euros (Agent expected to get closer to 1.5M). No carpark, no view, 1.5 bedrooms and 1 horrible bathroom with a kitchen you couldn't pay me to cook in and visible moisture on the walls. National isn't in power in Milan, nor Sydney nor Chicago, New York, London etc, so blaming National for house affordability is to break from reality. Did they *contribute*, yes, in my view by failing to restrict Foreign Ownership to only those who lived in NZ for example, or to limit anyone not born in NZ to one self tenanted property and 1 investment property, but to blame it all on the government is just crazy. Housing affordability is a simple equation between demand and supply.

There are affordable houses all over NZ, but we are a fussy group, we want to live in cities, want 5 double bedrooms, a view and lots of gadgets to fill every corner, along with nice cars to fill garages with, and unlike our parents, we aren't (usually) prepared to start humbly and work our way up as we can afford it. These are all contributing factors.

NZ is not Milan. Ive been in NZ for a while, houses have gone through the usual booms, but affordability has never been far away. The house to salary ratio has never been worse. It happened quickly, it wasnt an issue as no one cared about it, now they do. Those who are in the fussy group, we get what we want, as we can afford it, but this are not the core issue. the core issue is affordability, when what we are doing is affording all sorts of cool houses, while we watch income earners drop off the home ownership game.

When you achieve a solid level of home ownership you have a more stable and happy society. Thats of course obvious, but we are now going the other way. Im not bothered with those younger ones who arent prepared to start humbly, don't care at all. Its tough on those that want to, so thats not a contributing factor. If there are affordable houses all over NZ, labour is not a very mobile resource, thats Economics 101. Many have in fact acted on that, but just out of the main centres, and these are now hotspots. Gore isnt ideal unless you own a Valiant.

In summary, NZ has gone in what seems a blink of an eye to being Vancouver. During this period, we didnt do anything. KB failed. I suspect we will continue to do nothing, no matter who is in power. Bit of a pity IMHO.

I cant label this with other global centres. As a tiny country, we allowed too much access and ignored too many inputs. I dont recall blaming National for everything BTW, it goes on all Govts. Clarke had options, National had options and Labours idea failed.

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#2310811 4-Sep-2019 22:12

Mahon:

It seems a little unbalanced to even attempt to supply affordable homes for purchase in this booming economy. As stated earlier somewhere what we are seeing is a direct result of the current economy over the last decade.

I would have thought it way more prudent of a Labour Government to drastically increase the number of HNZ properties that the less fortunate can occupy/rent. Feeding the frenzy that ALL kiwis must own their own home is just dumb, especially in these times.

With so many low/medium income earners with large low interest loans, trouble will come sooner or later with interest rate rises. Some of the wiser in this community will know that interest rates will rise sooner or later.

Are we booming? We have been doing fine, but not booming. Its been slightly stagnant for a while. Growth is ok, wage growth and inflation are low, its been economically mild, and steady. The house prices are due to imported demand. More so not so much demand volume wise, but imported prices as foreign buyers see our prices and laugh they are so cheap so they pay foreign prices. Add in low interest for there non foreigners, who can now keep up with the artificial house pricing.

Labour have been rapidly adding social housing. As I mentioned earlier that should be part of whatever housing policy they have, if they have one. Social Housing has been an excellent silent achiever. Im not aware of any frenzy that ALL kiwis have to own their own home. How is Labour feeding that? Happy to see the links. Some of the population want to own a normal, ok, home, that is the problem

Many low/medium earners have large loans. Talk to the bank. Certainly these days of the I want it and I want it now mentality is an issue. Thats not really your or my concern. Those that can purchase wisely cannot. Or they can, but the house prices have created that risk, so they cant till later. When later arrives, prices are up. Its always been like that, but affordability always existed.

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#2310812 4-Sep-2019 22:18

networkn:

I expect before long there will be another market correction as interest rates increase and people are forced from their homes as a result of being over committed. The kids of friends of mine have just purchased a house which is JUST (and I mean JUST) within their means. Banks couldn't WAIT to get them a loan and despite their parents best attempts and even my own, they wouldn't listen to reason regarding how tight things were wound. They are living in an alternate reality where no one ever loses a job, appliances don't fail, or unexpected car repairs occur or that interest rates never climb.

That will happen. When the boom was over, prices remained high, fell slightly here and there. They go up in booms, they dint go back down again. They might stutter, as has happened, but they will remain high. Its getting keen again as Winter has past, more so than last year I read yesterday. Plenty of interest, all by first home buyers. I foresee interest rates staying low for 3 years minimum. Or longer, they will remain low. But the impending GFC means all bets are off. Thats out of our control

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