Our new coalition government.

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#2313120 8-Sep-2019 16:37

I was referring to all governments, which I thought was obvious.

But based on the 13,770 students who failed to complete at least one course, and the average course cost of $2800 for Student Achievement Component, the figure could be as high as $40 million.

Whats the number for regular students? The wasted money represents revenue, i.e. fees that were lost. For fees free, no revenue was lost as it was free. For paying students, the loss is theirs. If they built new schools and hired $40 million worth of teachers, then yes, thats a loss. Now there wound be cases of extra teachers extra classes, so a loss there. Do regular students flunk? Yes. Do fees free flunk? yes. Dont see the issue.

Is under-resourced apprentice based industries correct? Or incorrect?

Im not aware of an inevitable announcement to write off student loans. If its inevitable there should be a lot of media coverage on it.

Rikkitic

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#2313123 8-Sep-2019 16:47

networkn:

If you want to talk about wasting tax payer money...

As predicted:

A third of tertiary students who took up the Government's flagship fees-free policy failed or withdrew from at least one of their courses last year, Ministry of Education data shows.

The Tertiary Education Commission (TEC) did not have details on how much the Government had spent on courses students failed or withdrew from.

But based on the 13,770 students who failed to complete at least one course, and the average course cost of $2800 for Student Achievement Component, the figure could be as high as $40 million.

From the NZHerald article (premium so no point in posting it's link here).

Since Ardern made such a big deal about how it was going to help our under-resourced apprentice based industries it will be interesting on the follow up to see how many more "trades" people there are. I'm going to predict the number to be low to non-existent.

Yet another policy failure. People don't value what they get for free. Just waiting for Labours inevitable annoucement they are going to write off all student debt.

I don't doubt for a moment that you work hard and pay a lot of taxes, but as far as I can tell from some of your other comments, you seem to enjoy a higher than average income and lifestyle. So I have to wonder: What are you so outraged about? It seems to me that you are doing pretty well in godzone.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2313142 8-Sep-2019 18:03

Rikkitic:

networkn:

If you want to talk about wasting tax payer money...

As predicted:

A third of tertiary students who took up the Government's flagship fees-free policy failed or withdrew from at least one of their courses last year, Ministry of Education data shows.

The Tertiary Education Commission (TEC) did not have details on how much the Government had spent on courses students failed or withdrew from.

But based on the 13,770 students who failed to complete at least one course, and the average course cost of $2800 for Student Achievement Component, the figure could be as high as $40 million.

From the NZHerald article (premium so no point in posting it's link here).

Since Ardern made such a big deal about how it was going to help our under-resourced apprentice based industries it will be interesting on the follow up to see how many more "trades" people there are. I'm going to predict the number to be low to non-existent.

Yet another policy failure. People don't value what they get for free. Just waiting for Labours inevitable annoucement they are going to write off all student debt.

I don't doubt for a moment that you work hard and pay a lot of taxes, but as far as I can tell from some of your other comments, you seem to enjoy a higher than average income and lifestyle. So I have to wonder: What are you so outraged about? It seems to me that you are doing pretty well in godzone.

He is probably outraged like me at such a waste of our money from yet another example of a poorly thought through policy. This money like so much more wasted in poorly thought through policies should be going to places like our health sector our much needed infrastructure where we can all enjoy the benefits. If he is doing well in "godzone" it is probably due to hard work. The list of bad policy and their cost to us all is starting to get very high. This government is failing on so many fronts. But it is so good to see the fight on poverty going so well.

networkn

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#2313145 8-Sep-2019 18:12

Rikkitic:

I don't doubt for a moment that you work hard and pay a lot of taxes, but as far as I can tell from some of your other comments, you seem to enjoy a higher than average income and lifestyle. So I have to wonder: What are you so outraged about? It seems to me that you are doing pretty well in godzone.

Really? Sometimes you make me shake my head.

Waste is affects everyone and is everyones issue. For every dollar wasted, is something or someone that is missing out, and with enough of it (and God knows this Government knows how to waste money) there is the likely outcome that they will have to generate more income via taxes or leave something permanently unattended.

Imagine if that $40M into into cataract or knee surgery, or many other things...

GV27

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#2313146 8-Sep-2019 18:16

networkn:

Yet another policy failure. People don't value what they get for free. Just waiting for Labours inevitable annoucement they are going to write off all student debt.

I would vote for that; not just because I would benefit, but because I legitimately think you can't fire graduates out into a low wage economy with an already-huge debt and facing massively higher living costs than when the student loan scheme was first drawn up. That's not going to work anymore.

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#2313150 8-Sep-2019 18:32

networkn:

Rikkitic:

I don't doubt for a moment that you work hard and pay a lot of taxes, but as far as I can tell from some of your other comments, you seem to enjoy a higher than average income and lifestyle. So I have to wonder: What are you so outraged about? It seems to me that you are doing pretty well in godzone.

Really? Sometimes you make me shake my head.

Waste is affects everyone and is everyones issue. For every dollar wasted, is something or someone that is missing out, and with enough of it (and God knows this Government knows how to waste money) there is the likely outcome that they will have to generate more income via taxes or leave something permanently unattended.

Imagine if that $40M into into cataract or knee surgery, or many other things...

That 40 million is student fees paid by fees free kids that failed. Except they didnt pay the fees, so the 40 million is 40 million fees that were not paid and would never be paid as these kids would not have gone to Uni anyway. yes there. The waste as you put it is any costs such as teachers to cater for the extra numbers.

Also, is there no value in the many kids that got a break and used it? Or is it why should they get a free ride?

Rikkitic

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#2313157 8-Sep-2019 18:49

What strikes me is that it is usually the people who are best off who complain the loudest. I find that intriguing.

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#2313215 8-Sep-2019 20:33

Rikkitic:

What strikes me is that it is usually the people who are best off who complain the loudest. I find that intriguing.

Not me, I know I am in a privileged position, but I also have a handicapped son, so I understand his side of things all too well too.

I also suffer from chronic illness, so I understand that too.

Fred99

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#2313247 8-Sep-2019 21:12

networkn:

If you want to talk about wasting tax payer money...

As predicted:

A third of tertiary students who took up the Government's flagship fees-free policy failed or withdrew from at least one of their courses last year, Ministry of Education data shows.

The Tertiary Education Commission (TEC) did not have details on how much the Government had spent on courses students failed or withdrew from.

But based on the 13,770 students who failed to complete at least one course, and the average course cost of $2800 for Student Achievement Component, the figure could be as high as $40 million.

From the NZHerald article (premium so no point in posting it's link here).

Since Ardern made such a big deal about how it was going to help our under-resourced apprentice based industries it will be interesting on the follow up to see how many more "trades" people there are. I'm going to predict the number to be low to non-existent.

Yet another policy failure. People don't value what they get for free. Just waiting for Labours inevitable annoucement they are going to write off all student debt.

This article makes Hosking seem "balanced".

It's a load of utter abject garbage. I won't dignify it by bothering to tear it apart point by point. Suffice to say that TEC didn't have details for very good reason, so a partisan fool invented a story anyway.

Note that this has been posted here by someone frequently posting about owning expensive stuff and living an expensive lifestyle. Shame.

Edit:

Oh well, I changed my mind, I'll elaborate on one point, about quantifying failing or not completing, and why the story is BS.

Not everybody will pass or complete regardless of whether they pay or not, not every non-completion means the student gave up, they may have changed for a variety of reasons - that's normal. Not every course failed is failed, that might sound obscure, but if you don't pass first time, then you may be able to re-sit.

Many thousands of courses across many institutions - universities, polytechnics, PTEs, etc, tens of thousands of first year students, compiling meaningful data is hard, and we're only part-way through the first year.

Fred99

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#2313249 8-Sep-2019 21:18

networkn:

Imagine if that $40M into into cataract or knee surgery, or many other things...

Given that the $40M figure is imaginary, why not imagine how many unicorns it might buy?

freitasm

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#2313253 8-Sep-2019 21:30

@Fred99:

Note that this has been posted here by someone frequently posting about owning expensive stuff and living an expensive lifestyle. Shame.

How is this relevant? This comment is completely uncalled for.

Fred99

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#2313263 8-Sep-2019 21:47

freitasm:

@Fred99:

Note that this has been posted here by someone frequently posting about owning expensive stuff and living an expensive lifestyle. Shame.

How is this relevant? This comment is completely uncalled for.

It's absolutely relevant because people who own expensive stuff and live expensive lifestyles should not in my opinion be complaining about policies that have been set in place to try to reverse growing multi-generational inequality of access to education - and lack of family wealth has been identified as the most significant barrier.

Especially when they then make elitist slurs against recipients of a very much needed system by tarring them with the usual poor-blaming "people don't value things that they get for free" - as if that was relevant or true.

GV27

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#2313350 9-Sep-2019 06:59

Fred99:

It's absolutely relevant because people who own expensive stuff and live expensive lifestyles should not in my opinion be complaining about policies that have been set in place to try to reverse growing multi-generational inequality of access to education - and lack of family wealth has been identified as the most significant barrier.

Especially when they then make elitist slurs against recipients of a very much needed system by tarring them with the usual poor-blaming "people don't value things that they get for free" - as if that was relevant or true.

Michael Cullen, is that you

sir1963

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#2313360 9-Sep-2019 07:39

Fred99:

freitasm:

@Fred99:

Note that this has been posted here by someone frequently posting about owning expensive stuff and living an expensive lifestyle. Shame.

How is this relevant? This comment is completely uncalled for.

It's absolutely relevant because people who own expensive stuff and live expensive lifestyles should not in my opinion be complaining about policies that have been set in place to try to reverse growing multi-generational inequality of access to education - and lack of family wealth has been identified as the most significant barrier.

Especially when they then make elitist slurs against recipients of a very much needed system by tarring them with the usual poor-blaming "people don't value things that they get for free" - as if that was relevant or true.

It was interesting to see the sons and daughters of wealthy people in the USA where bribe money was paid to get them into "Good schools", those children did not care, did not study hard, etc.

This is why its important for everyone to get the same educational opportunities, so we get the people who do care, who are talented, irrespective of their families wealth. This is why I also support the new school lunches program, poor nutrition is a barrier to learning.

Blaming the children and punishing them for choices the parents made has never made sense to me.

tdgeek

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#2313364 9-Sep-2019 07:53

sir1963:

It was interesting to see the sons and daughters of wealthy people in the USA where bribe money was paid to get them into "Good schools", those children did not care, did not study hard, etc.

This is why its important for everyone to get the same educational opportunities, so we get the people who do care, who are talented, irrespective of their families wealth. This is why I also support the new school lunches program, poor nutrition is a barrier to learning.

Blaming the children and punishing them for choices the parents made has never made sense to me.

I agree. I can see the argument for the other view. I worked hard, paid my way, why should anyone else get a free ride. While a teen is free to make their choice for a higher education, their upbringing and socio-economic status of the parent(s) doesn't make that a slam dunk. Some will fight hard through that, many won't. Should higher education be easier to commence, over time you will start breaking that barrier, less will be in low wage jobs getting income topups, and the low education low income lifestyle will cease from that point on for some. That helps the country and the general state of the people

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