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Rikkitic
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  #2583162 12-Oct-2020 15:33
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networkn:

 

Suggesting that I am in anyway saying the current state of affairs is perfect is ridiculous and a gross misrepresentation of the statements I have made, including those which state outright, that the current situation isn't good enough, and one of my issues with voting no, is that we will abandon solving the issues that are currently faced. I fully support actions which will meaningfully solve some of the issues that are currently a problem, but that I don't feel the current bill/legalization proposal will actually solve many if any, and that the proposed pros of this bill will actually ever eventuate.

 

I am frustrated that the Greens have yet again made this a all or nothing situation, as they often do with issues. This is extremely offputting behaviour and one of the reasons I think they are important for the country, but only in smallish doses.

 

I really hope, that if this does not pass, that whoever is in Government, does not take this as a signal to abandon the issue entirely, but instead continues to work on alternative ways to solve the issues that exist today.

 

Anyways, I don't think there is much more to be said, so I am going to opt out here, as these threads do tend to devolve over time.

 

 

 

 

I am not suggesting that you think the status quo is perfect. I was making a general statement to illustrate a point. I know you don't think the current situation is acceptable, and your main complaint is about the binary choice being presented. And I fully agree with the hope that if the referendum fails, that the issue won't just be swept under the carpet. 

 

We don't disagree on this. If forced to choose one or the other, you lean towards keeping things as they are rather than risk an experiment with an uncertain outcome. I just believe that the outcome would not be that drastic in any case, and change is better than not. But I wish there had also been a choice for decriminalisation. I would have still gone for legalisation, but it is a step in the right direction.

 

   





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 




networkn
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  #2583169 12-Oct-2020 15:50
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Rikkitic:

 

I am not suggesting that you think the status quo is perfect. I was making a general statement to illustrate a point. I know you don't think the current situation is acceptable, and your main complaint is about the binary choice being presented. And I fully agree with the hope that if the referendum fails, that the issue won't just be swept under the carpet. 

 

We don't disagree on this. If forced to choose one or the other, you lean towards keeping things as they are rather than risk an experiment with an uncertain outcome. I just believe that the outcome would not be that drastic in any case, and change is better than not. But I wish there had also been a choice for decriminalisation. I would have still gone for legalisation, but it is a step in the right direction.

 

   

 

 

At the risk of being argumentative;

 

 

 

There seems to be an assumption in your arguments, and those of others, that the choice is between a perfect state of affairs at present, and all the problems that legal cannabis will bring.

 

You aren't suggesting it, you are outrightly stating it.

 

You asked for stats and yes stats can be daming (and twisted to suit any argument I guess), but vehicular deaths due to cannabis do exist, so, asked and answered. If the stats are off, then they aren't going to be 100% off, surely? I was aware when I posted the link it was from a no biased site, it just happened to be one of the first sites I found.

 

I believe if you legalize weed, not only will usage increase, but usage among the younger people. It's a little like lowering the drinking age.. When the drinking age was 20, 17/18/19 year olds were getting their hands on it, but when the age dropped to 18, then 14/15/16 year olds were getting their hands on it. I used to have a saved article that showed some stats around this, and it was fairly damning. Unfortunately, I can't find it. The article showed that decision making in an 18 year old vs 20 year old was quite signifcantly worse (Shocker!). You could say that Cannabis use in countries didn't significantly increase in countries that legalize (and I am always quite suspicious of those to be frank), but most countries don't have the same love affair with alcohol and other substances that NZ/Australia do, and that will be a factor.

 

The problem is, once the genie is out of the bottle, there is no putting it back in.  A gradual measured (and measureable) approach is one I support. Legalization was a step too far. I did spent quite a bit of time genuinely agonizing over this decision.

 

 

 

 


Rikkitic
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  #2583178 12-Oct-2020 16:05
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networkn:

 

At the risk of being argumentative;

 

There seems to be an assumption in your arguments, and those of others, that the choice is between a perfect state of affairs at present, and all the problems that legal cannabis will bring.

 

You aren't suggesting it, you are outrightly stating it.

 

 

Well, I did say 'seems', but you are right. Guilty as charged.

 

Asked and answered. You are also right about that. I do think you might have found a better site to support your point, though.

 

Honestly, I think the genie already is out of the bottle, and has been for some time. Whether the referendum makes things better or worse remains to be seen. I believe that you did genuinely spend a lot of time thinking about this. Believe it or not, so did I, even though I always intended to vote yes. I also learned some things I didn't know in the process.

 

 

 

 

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 




Handle9

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  #2583232 12-Oct-2020 17:47
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Handle9:

 

This is an interesting article about the politics of the NZMA. It's fairly curious that they have taken a strong position without consulting the membership.

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427482/cannabis-referendum-medical-association-failed-to-its-consult-members-doctor

 

 

They've now walked this back. Unfortunately the no lobby group has already widely publicised the view that the NZMA opposes the cannabis legislation.


Handle9

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  #2583236 12-Oct-2020 17:57
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networkn:

 

I believe if you legalize weed, not only will usage increase, but usage among the younger people. It's a little like lowering the drinking age.. When the drinking age was 20, 17/18/19 year olds were getting their hands on it, but when the age dropped to 18, then 14/15/16 year olds were getting their hands on it. I used to have a saved article that showed some stats around this, and it was fairly damning. Unfortunately, I can't find it. The article showed that decision making in an 18 year old vs 20 year old was quite signifcantly worse (Shocker!). You could say that Cannabis use in countries didn't significantly increase in countries that legalize (and I am always quite suspicious of those to be frank), but most countries don't have the same love affair with alcohol and other substances that NZ/Australia do, and that will be a factor.

 

 

There will probably be a moderate increase in usage, this is what has happened overseas. The evidence overseas is that usage hasn't risen among young people. In Colorado and Washington the usage of cannabis among young people declined. The usage of cannabis by young people has been dropping for some time and this doesn't appear to change 

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/washington-state-teens-are-toking-less-since-cannabis-was-legalized-new-study-says

 

I don't get your argument around usage by young people at all. The US is reasonably similar in their alcohol culture to NZ. All the relevant stats around drug and alcohol abuse by teens have been dropping in NZ for some time, there's no reason to believe that this would change under legalisation, it hasn't happened overseas.


vexxxboy
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  #2583716 13-Oct-2020 16:31
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i am voting no just to piss of all the people who are so condescending and dismissive to any other point of view than there own .





Common sense is not as common as you think.


Handle9

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  #2583816 13-Oct-2020 17:39
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vexxxboy:

 

i am voting no just to piss of all the people who are so condescending and dismissive to any other point of view than there own .

 

 

This is why referenda are dumb.


 
 
 

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vexxxboy
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  #2583817 13-Oct-2020 17:49
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Handle9:

 

vexxxboy:

 

i am voting no just to piss of all the people who are so condescending and dismissive to any other point of view than there own .

 

 

This is why referenda are dumb.

 

 

Yep





Common sense is not as common as you think.


gzt

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  #2583889 13-Oct-2020 20:02
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Synthetic cannabis is not cannabis - and continues to kill people:

Stuff 2019: A father of five found dead on a footpath is one of at least 70 people in barely two years believed to have died from synthetic cannabis use in New Zealand.

It's pretty obvious to me some very nasty stuff is being sold to street people. No doubt it is available to others as well. Whoever is at the top of that that really deserves the lockup. There must be a fair amount of synthetics around. Also, I'd be surprised if there is not some tainting of genuine cannabis with synthetics going on here and there..

dwilson
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  #2584031 14-Oct-2020 02:05
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vexxxboy:

 

i am voting no just to piss of all the people who are so condescending and dismissive to any other point of view than there own .

 

 

How does this help?

 

All I see as a result of your actions is your rotten meaness spreading a little more and the country being a worse place.

 

I wonder if the chain reaction of your meaness ends up with some burglar climbing in my window and stealing my TV in the future?

 

I could never vote on anything out of pure spite.


Fred99
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  #2584069 14-Oct-2020 08:12
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gzt: Synthetic cannabis is not cannabis - and continues to kill people:

 

...and as such should never be called "synthetic cannabis" by the media.

 

Not just homeless people, I know a couple of young people seriously harmed by that poison.


sen8or
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  #2584107 14-Oct-2020 09:26
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If it was a choice between synthetic or actual, I'd happily choose actual, like Fred99, have seen the harm caused by chemicals masquerading as dope.  The argument for/against synthetics doesn't belong in the same argument for/against actual, except for the fact that they are both mind altering substances


vexxxboy
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  #2584285 14-Oct-2020 13:05
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dwilson:

 

vexxxboy:

 

i am voting no just to piss of all the people who are so condescending and dismissive to any other point of view than there own .

 

 

How does this help?

 

All I see as a result of your actions is your rotten meaness spreading a little more and the country being a worse place.

 

I wonder if the chain reaction of your meaness ends up with some burglar climbing in my window and stealing my TV in the future?

 

I could never vote on anything out of pure spite.

 

 

it's not spite , i think of it more like Karma.





Common sense is not as common as you think.


Rikkitic
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  #2584289 14-Oct-2020 13:16
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You should vote your beliefs. If you are against legalisation, that is fine. We live in a democracy. If you just want to piss people off, that seems pretty immature to me.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


vexxxboy
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  #2584355 14-Oct-2020 15:21
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Rikkitic:

 

You should vote your beliefs. If you are against legalisation, that is fine. We live in a democracy. If you just want to piss people off, that seems pretty immature to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

yep but sometimes it feels really good





Common sense is not as common as you think.


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