Our new coalition government.

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#2352015 12-Nov-2019 07:38

GV27:

millennials for not using non-existent disposable income to buy things or putting off life milestones because they can't afford to do something.

I think you will find that many many things were more expensive then. Even in absolute terms. Many if not all tools are cheaper now, even though the wages now are many times higher than then. Petrol took more wage days to fill a tank then now. Only recently some of us were yakking about prices, and how many things are lower now despite wages then being a fraction of now. The level of not much spare cash at payday after bills is nothing new. But then, you had less demand on that cash, there was little tech stuff to buy, taking the family out didnt require loading up the wallet. How much was a 5yo car? A years salary? Now its a fraction of that. These days many luxury items such as iPhones are necessities to many, as are clothes brand names. PDI may not be much better or worse now, but you get more for it

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#2352019 12-Nov-2019 07:41

GV27:

Anyway, supposedly the Port move is now a lock, according to TVNZ.

Lucky Aucklanders, stripped of a publicly owned asset but in exchange they get to *checks notes* pay billions of dollars additional to the port move cost for a potential stadium?

A lock as in locked in? Election in less than 12 months. Im sure there are Labour constituencies up there? That will rill the current Government if all Aucklands citizens are not in favour of the port move? Which I assume is the case?

GV27

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#2352024 12-Nov-2019 08:01

tdgeek:

GV27:

millennials for not using non-existent disposable income to buy things or putting off life milestones because they can't afford to do something.

I think you will find that many many things were more expensive then. Even in absolute terms. Many if not all tools are cheaper now, even though the wages now are many times higher than then. Petrol took more wage days to fill a tank then now. Only recently some of us were yakking about prices, and how many things are lower now despite wages then being a fraction of now. The level of not much spare cash at payday after bills is nothing new. But then, you had less demand on that cash, there was little tech stuff to buy, taking the family out didnt require loading up the wallet. How much was a 5yo car? A years salary? Now its a fraction of that. These days many luxury items such as iPhones are necessities to many, as are clothes brand names. PDI may not be much better or worse now, but you get more for it

Oh without a doubt. But things like huge TVs and iPhones are effectively 'around the edges' stuff. We've reached a point where you can lead a comfortable lifestyle, but home ownership rates are plummeting and people are putting off families later and later. For all the changes to open up and free up the economy, the 'basics' (house/food/transport) are far harder to cover. Being able to buy a 75" TV for under $3k is cool, having houses at 9x median household income (two earners) is a much tougher trade than no flatscreens and houses being 3x household incomes at 1.5 FTE - if that).

tdgeek

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#2352026 12-Nov-2019 08:18

GV27:

tdgeek:

GV27:

millennials for not using non-existent disposable income to buy things or putting off life milestones because they can't afford to do something.

I think you will find that many many things were more expensive then. Even in absolute terms. Many if not all tools are cheaper now, even though the wages now are many times higher than then. Petrol took more wage days to fill a tank then now. Only recently some of us were yakking about prices, and how many things are lower now despite wages then being a fraction of now. The level of not much spare cash at payday after bills is nothing new. But then, you had less demand on that cash, there was little tech stuff to buy, taking the family out didnt require loading up the wallet. How much was a 5yo car? A years salary? Now its a fraction of that. These days many luxury items such as iPhones are necessities to many, as are clothes brand names. PDI may not be much better or worse now, but you get more for it

Oh without a doubt. But things like huge TVs and iPhones are effectively 'around the edges' stuff. We've reached a point where you can lead a comfortable lifestyle, but home ownership rates are plummeting and people are putting off families later and later. For all the changes to open up and free up the economy, the 'basics' (house/food/transport) are far harder to cover. Being able to buy a 75" TV for under $3k is cool, having houses at 9x median household income (two earners) is a much tougher trade than no flatscreens and houses being 3x household incomes at 1.5 FTE - if that).

Yep, housing, which (I intentionally omitted) is the biggie. How is that the boomers fault? Back in the day, annual wages increases were high, like 10%+ , inflation was high, like 15%+, interest rates were high, you could earn 13% on debentures then, let alone what it cost to borrow. Everything was high. Now, all of these are low. Theoretically, you could say they are similar times. If wages and inflation are at similar levels whether this be high or low, its more or less maintaining purchasing power . Houses. These didnt start increasing due to boomers, it was inflation. Then it was ok. The change in the multiplier of wages to house prices is fairly recent, its not like it was 3X in 1980 and 10X in 1986. Immigration outpacing new builds, foreigners paying silly prices that to them are good prices but to us are silly, low interest rates, these are what caused a the bulk of the disparity. These are recent factors. Boomers didnt cause it

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#2352036 12-Nov-2019 08:58

tdgeek:

These are recent factors. Boomers didnt cause it

IMO only with the proviso that using the term "boomers" suggests that all people of that generation were complicit in a plot to hyper-inflate value of their homes and investment properties, reduce worker-protections, increase competition in the job marketplace and drive down wages by opening the market up to foreign competition from immigration, increase entry cost to better paid jobs by introducing fees for tertiary education, reinforce multi-generational inequality by elimination of death duty, reduce high taxes on high income earners to shift from a progressive tax system to a nearly regressive (after basic living costs) tax system.

Didn't cause it? Well maybe not deliberately - but "we" voted for it.

Edit:

And as a final comment, we've entrenched a system where to reverse the trend without creating an economic catastrophe really fits the definition of a "wicked problem":

There is no definitive formulation of a wicked problem.
Wicked problems have no stopping rule.
Solutions to wicked problems are not true-or-false, but better or worse.
There is no immediate and no ultimate test of a solution to a wicked problem.
Every solution to a wicked problem is a "one-shot operation"; because there is no opportunity to learn by trial and error, every attempt counts significantly.
Wicked problems do not have an enumerable (or an exhaustively describable) set of potential solutions, nor is there a well-described set of permissible operations that may be incorporated into the plan.
Every wicked problem is essentially unique.
Every wicked problem can be considered to be a symptom of another problem.
The existence of a discrepancy representing a wicked problem can be explained in numerous ways. The choice of explanation determines the nature of the problem's resolution.
The social planner has no right to be wrong (i.e., planners are liable for the consequences of the actions they generate).

Hence half the posts in this thread expressing discontent with the actions of the present government's apparent inability to meet promises that may have sounded great in election speeches, but hit the wall of pragmatic reality. The solution to that (IMO) isn't to admit defeat and return to failing conservative policies (which is what we'll probably do).

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#2352039 12-Nov-2019 09:12

Fred99:

tdgeek:

These are recent factors. Boomers didnt cause it

IMO only with the proviso that using the term "boomers" suggests that all people of that generation were complicit in a plot to hyper-inflate value of their homes and investment properties, reduce worker-protections, increase competition in the job marketplace and drive down wages by opening the market up to foreign competition from immigration, increase entry cost to better paid jobs by introducing fees for tertiary education, reinforce multi-generational inequality by elimination death duty, reduce high taxes on high income earners to shift from a progressive tax system to a nearly regressive (after basic living costs) tax system.

Didn't cause it? Well maybe not deliberately - but "we" voted for it.

As did anyone else that was not in that boomer bracket vote them in. Say Helen was a few years older and John was a few years younger, then they would also fall out of baby boomer labelling. My argument is that certain groups get labelled as the cause but they were merely participants in that time . If we had a time machine, and we could swap the boomers with the millennials, would anything change? No.

Just as GV stated jewellers blame millennials for not marrying or marrying later so sales are down. Are millenialls being mean? No. The time we are in has changed how we marry. A common saying for a long while has been "Change is normal" Clearly we cannot adapt to any change if blame is the regular go to.

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#2352044 12-Nov-2019 09:22

Fred99:

Hence half the posts in this thread expressing discontent with the actions of the present government's apparent inability to meet promises that may have sounded great in election speeches, but hit the wall of pragmatic reality. The solution to that (IMO) isn't to admit defeat and return to failing conservative policies (which is what we'll probably do).

Ironically, the key points in this boomer tangent is wages and housing affordability, two areas that Nats have no interest in.

When you have difficult problems and you also need to get votes to be in a position to attack those difficult problems, thats not compatible.

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Fred99

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#2352054 12-Nov-2019 09:40

tdgeek:

Just as GV stated jewellers blame millennials for not marrying or marrying later so sales are down.

I'd tend to mainly blame the Kardashians and other similarly gross vulgarian celebrities for that.
Most of the young people I know find ostentatious displays of wealth repulsive, even gave me sh!t for buying a newish car that only cost about 30 iPhones.

MikeB4

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#2352072 12-Nov-2019 10:12

Handle9:
MikeB4:

I respectfully disagree. There has been a rise in ageism in New Zealand and it is getting quite nasty. Bigotry is abhorrent and should never be tolerated.

Ageism nothing new. It's just become more bidirectional and transparent due to social media. I hadn't head much in the mainstream media complaining about discrimination against "entitled millennials" or "lazy Gen X" etc.

Bigotry is abhorrent in what ever form it takes being ageism(remember ageism goes in both directions), racism, religious, disability... An opportunist infection as a result of bigotry is scapegoats. History proves that the use of scapegoats is disastrous. Those in government that start down the bigotry line lead to scapegoats and all that entails. We have to be always vigilant to this and hold those who start down that track accountable immediately.

Mahon

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#2352199 12-Nov-2019 13:08

MikeB4:

Handle9:
MikeB4:

I respectfully disagree. There has been a rise in ageism in New Zealand and it is getting quite nasty. Bigotry is abhorrent and should never be tolerated.

Ageism nothing new. It's just become more bidirectional and transparent due to social media. I hadn't head much in the mainstream media complaining about discrimination against "entitled millennials" or "lazy Gen X" etc.

Bigotry is abhorrent in what ever form it takes being ageism(remember ageism goes in both directions), racism, religious, disability... An opportunist infection as a result of bigotry is scapegoats. History proves that the use of scapegoats is disastrous. Those in government that start down the bigotry line lead to scapegoats and all that entails. We have to be always vigilant to this and hold those who start down that track accountable immediately.

I think the millenials are just super pissed that the boomers got all the good email addresses :P

tdgeek

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#2352292 12-Nov-2019 14:33

Mahon:

MikeB4:

Handle9:
MikeB4:

I respectfully disagree. There has been a rise in ageism in New Zealand and it is getting quite nasty. Bigotry is abhorrent and should never be tolerated.

Ageism nothing new. It's just become more bidirectional and transparent due to social media. I hadn't head much in the mainstream media complaining about discrimination against "entitled millennials" or "lazy Gen X" etc.

Bigotry is abhorrent in what ever form it takes being ageism(remember ageism goes in both directions), racism, religious, disability... An opportunist infection as a result of bigotry is scapegoats. History proves that the use of scapegoats is disastrous. Those in government that start down the bigotry line lead to scapegoats and all that entails. We have to be always vigilant to this and hold those who start down that track accountable immediately.

I think the millenials are just super pissed that the boomers got all the good email addresses :P

johnsmith2654465843@whoever.com is still available.... :-)

gulfa

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#2352315 12-Nov-2019 15:10

Have any of the last few comments got anything to with the coalition Govt Perhaps a new topic

MikeB4

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#2352319 12-Nov-2019 15:17

gulfa:

Have any of the last few comments got anything to with the coalition Govt Perhaps a new topic

They have a direct link to the coalition government. They relate to comments made by a NZ First member and a Green Party member.

GV27

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#2352581 13-Nov-2019 07:32

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/403141/mysterious-foundation-loaning-new-zealand-first-money

Considering how the media dined out on Bridges during the JLR scandal about donation splitting, I'm hoping* we see the same level of scrutiny applied to NZ First.

*it will literally never happen, I can't think of an electoral cycle without an amended NZ First donation form being pushed through or some sort of funding scandal, yet the media gives Winston a free ride and a platform to attack others on this sort of thing without fail.

tdgeek

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#2352585 13-Nov-2019 07:41

GV27:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/403141/mysterious-foundation-loaning-new-zealand-first-money

Considering how the media dined out on Bridges during the JLR scandal about donation splitting, I'm hoping* we see the same level of scrutiny applied to NZ First.

*it will literally never happen, I can't think of an electoral cycle without an amended NZ First donation form being pushed through or some sort of funding scandal, yet the media gives Winston a free ride and a platform to attack others on this sort of thing without fail.

I think secret racist conversations bagging a race and his own MP's then what JLR did is quite a bit more an issue than donations. IIRC Banksy's was glossed over, "I dont recall that"

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