English. The man with the plan.

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rjt123

517 posts

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#1896765 7-Nov-2017 13:16

Rikkitic:

How can the Green party not be part of the coalition if they have Ministers in the government, even thought they are 'outside' cabinet? I'm not arguing the point, I just don't understand how it works.

Cabinet is who make the decisions on the direction the government goes, what legislation is instigated etc. Just like not all labour MP's are in cabinet, it essentially denotes your unwritten 'authority' within the government of the day.

The executive are of the government is made up of Ministers and their departments and should be viewed as a separate body to the legislative arm of government, which includes all MP's, government & opposition.

the executive's role is to decide on policy and if necessary bring forward legislation to enable those policies, the legislative's roles is to scrutinise the actions of the executive.

In answer to your question, being in cabinet is a coveted position because you can influence the direction of the government, but to be a minister is also a privilege because you are responsible for your department and essentially have control of policy within your area of jurisdiction, but to be in cabinet does not require you to be part of the coalition. So for the green's their ministerial posts are just a reward for promising to give heir confidence vote to the labour-nzf coalition

gzt

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#1896862 7-Nov-2017 15:01

English chalks up his first victory. Labour whip asleep at the wheel:

Stuff: [Simon Bridges] "It was a disorganised government that we saw today that didn't know its numbers, which meant we were able to get what we thought was important and what is important for New Zealanders."

"I hope the new government has learnt a lesson and will pick up its act," he said.

It's understood the government had the numbers to elect Mallard but fell for National's bluff as the pressure ramped up in the House and things ground to a halt while a deal was done.

Select committees will now remain at 108. I'm not sure that will make a difference in practice.

Pumpedd

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#1896950 7-Nov-2017 16:32

gzt: English chalks up his first victory. Labour whip asleep at the wheel:

Stuff: [Simon Bridges] "It was a disorganised government that we saw today that didn't know its numbers, which meant we were able to get what we thought was important and what is important for New Zealanders."

"I hope the new government has learnt a lesson and will pick up its act," he said.

It's understood the government had the numbers to elect Mallard but fell for National's bluff as the pressure ramped up in the House and things ground to a halt while a deal was done.

Select committees will now remain at 108. I'm not sure that will make a difference in practice.

Agreed. Not the point tho...showed they arent sleeping. Guess Labour on a power trip...should wake them up.

gzt

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#1897202 7-Nov-2017 22:07

Labour says National had previously agreed to Mallard (L) as speaker in return for Tolley (N) as deputy. Makes sense. The suggestion they would oppose was a marginal call from National imo and likely on the spur of the moment, but all the same Labour is lucky to get the wake up call on day one.

MMP parliaments imo have been exceptionally collaborative. The preceding FPP parliaments tended to feature a lot of ineffective yelling and lack of contribution to legislation. That tends to generate a lot of amendments in later parliaments to fix minor issues, and other associated cruft to be fixed. Imo MMP has suffered less of that, because of multipartisan contributions.

It would be unfortunate to see a return to the preceding style, which did tend to include a lot of silly stunts by the opposition with little chance of success. Mainly because they had nothing better to do.

Pumpedd

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#1897205 7-Nov-2017 22:19

gzt: Labour says National had previously agreed to Mallard (L) as speaker in return for Tolley (N) as deputy. Makes sense. The suggestion they would oppose was a marginal call from National imo and likely on the spur of the moment, but all the same Labour is lucky to get the wake up call on day one.

MMP parliaments imo have been exceptionally collaborative. The preceding FPP parliaments tended to feature a lot of ineffective yelling and lack of contribution to legislation. That tends to generate a lot of amendments in later parliaments to fix minor issues, and other associated cruft to be fixed. Imo MMP has suffered less of that, because of multipartisan contributions.

It would be unfortunate to see a return to the preceding style, which did tend to include a lot of silly stunts by the opposition with little chance of success. Mainly because they had nothing better to do.

Managing your numbers in the house is paramount to being an effective Government. It is one of the prime functions. Every Government member has to seek leave etc when absent and standing orders dictate a pair is given so as not to disadvantage government.

No doubt National would not have put this to a vote, but rather were being a strong opposition and perhaps showing up tardiness of Government Whips.

Labour should accept that they screwed up rather than trying to put a spin on it.

itxtme

2102 posts

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#1897208 7-Nov-2017 22:44

^hmm not sure I agree Pumpedd, what if Labour had turned round and denied the national candate the 2nd position? At first I was feeling it was a complete embarrisment for Labour, after hearing the full story on agreements I am starting to wonder if its just National doing some desperate posturing..

Pumpedd

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#1897294 8-Nov-2017 08:10

itxtme:

^hmm not sure I agree Pumpedd, what if Labour had turned round and denied the national candate the 2nd position? At first I was feeling it was a complete embarrisment for Labour, after hearing the full story on agreements I am starting to wonder if its just National doing some desperate posturing..

Thats what being in opposition is all about. Coalition is meant to be leading and clearly in charge. They wern't and they allowed a huge symbolic win to the opposition. Read what most of the commentators are saying!

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frednz

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#1897320 8-Nov-2017 09:02

Pumpedd:

itxtme:

^hmm not sure I agree Pumpedd, what if Labour had turned round and denied the national candate the 2nd position? At first I was feeling it was a complete embarrisment for Labour, after hearing the full story on agreements I am starting to wonder if its just National doing some desperate posturing..

Thats what being in opposition is all about. Coalition is meant to be leading and clearly in charge. They wern't and they allowed a huge symbolic win to the opposition. Read what most of the commentators are saying!

I think it was a rather grubby thing for National to do on the opening day of Parliament. Bill English usually comes across as professional and reasonable, so I'm wondering whether he really did approve of this stunt. It's just not what I would have expected from him, but perhaps Simon Bridges has more influence now?

rjt123

517 posts

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#1897332 8-Nov-2017 09:26

frednz:

Pumpedd:

itxtme:

^hmm not sure I agree Pumpedd, what if Labour had turned round and denied the national candate the 2nd position? At first I was feeling it was a complete embarrisment for Labour, after hearing the full story on agreements I am starting to wonder if its just National doing some desperate posturing..

Thats what being in opposition is all about. Coalition is meant to be leading and clearly in charge. They wern't and they allowed a huge symbolic win to the opposition. Read what most of the commentators are saying!

I think it was a rather grubby thing for National to do on the opening day of Parliament. Bill English usually comes across as professional and reasonable, so I'm wondering whether he really did approve of this stunt. It's just not what I would have expected from him, but perhaps Simon Bridges has more influence now?

Nope, reminds me of the debates when he just stood there smiling while Jacinda pulled ficticious numbers out of the air in a relentlessly positive way... and then turned around blasted her with a list of potential taxes that she refused to rule out. If you can't scrape together a majority in parliament then you can't rule out the opposition steamrolling you... like they did. They just weren't a screaming, yelling opposition like what we're used to, it was a clever calculated opposition that knows what they're doing.

amiga500

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#1897621 8-Nov-2017 14:50

Lots of National 'nodding heads' behind Bill English today. Why can't they hold up little cards that say 'We agree 110%'? A speech from Bill is like watching a kid build something from Lego - the final result is recognizable but not very satisfying for anyone.

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