Gay Wedding Cakes

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#2054206 11-Jul-2018 11:52

I'm not against the ladies wanting their cake for their wedding at all, it doesn't offend me in the slightest, I'm not religious, and I think I'm pretty open. But here goes for a discussion.

I thought any shop was in their rights to refuse a sale? Isn't buying something an offer to buy, that the shopkeeper is allowed to accept or not? I didn't think they had to give a reason. Just because. If I have this wrong, them my whole discussion point is mute. But that's how I understood the law.

Now because the shopkeeper has, in this case, given a reason, that is covered by the human rights commission (I think refusal because of sexual orientation/race) then it becomes an issue.

Is this right? I mean if the cake maker had just said, no I can't make it. With no explanation, a, would that be legal, and b, would we even know about this?

Even though I don't agree with the cake maker at all, shouldn't they get to decide, generally, who they want to serve....and if they have outdated, bigoted ideas, then it will only hurt their business but no-one else?

I'm trying to chose language and points here to avoid offending anyone, so if I have, just let me know.

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#2054208 11-Jul-2018 11:53

I wonder if that baker sells pies to gays? Does she ask customers about their sexual orientation before doing business with them? If she finds gay marriage not correct, she probably also finds being gay not correct. What is the distinction here?

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6FIEND

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#2054212 11-Jul-2018 12:01

Fred99:

6FIEND:

freitasm:

In the cake case the religion doesn't prohibit someone from making a cake or touching the ingredients. The person doesn't want to do it because of discrimination.

Also a good point.

But if we take the Halal eatery example and change it slightly so that it's not about "handling prohibited foods"...

Perhaps consider a printing company owned and operated by a devout Muslim. Should we compel that person to print copies of the notorious "Allah is Gay" pamphlets?

If not, would we compel a devout Christian printer to print an equivalent "God is gay" pamphlet?

Apologies - we're well on our way down a rabbit hole now...

Those examples are not comparable.

A printer should be allowed to refuse to print anything they find offensive - but not to refuse to serve a customer because of what they are.

Any baker who didn't want to make a cake decorated with (legal) pornography should have the right to refuse.

Ok.

(and incidentally, thanks to everyone who has contributed here for the manner in which you have engaged on this topic)

To examine it from a slightly different perspective - would it be reasonable for the baker to argue that she is not prepared to bake the cake on the basis of what the couple intend to do with it (Ie. To use it as a component of making a public declaration of their love for each other) because they find that offensive? Despite it being legal. Rather than refusing service to the customer because of who they are.

Again with the analogies...

Would we compel an Islamic Imam to perform a wedding ceremony for a gay couple?

Lias

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#2054213 11-Jul-2018 12:07

Was discussing this with a gay friend of mine the other day, here's his thoughts on the matter (complete with his typo's lol)

I mean.. the letter that the cake maker wrote them was actually quite plesant
I don't think it warrants a public slandering..
'Kath's Devine Cakes' no longer has a facebook page because it was overrun by internet bullies
I mean.. maybe if the letter was nasty.. or.. if she agreed to make it and on the day was like "haha no cake for you I hate lesbos get rekd" but, she just doesn't want to be a part of it.. which is fair enough

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Fred99

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#2054216 11-Jul-2018 12:11

davidcole:

I thought any shop was in their rights to refuse a sale? Isn't buying something an offer to buy, that the shopkeeper is allowed to accept or not? I didn't think they had to give a reason. Just because. If I have this wrong, them my whole discussion point is mute. But that's how I understood the law.

No:

Discrimination in provision of goods and services 44 Provision of goods and services
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person who supplies goods, facilities, or services to the public or to any section of the public—
(a) to refuse or fail on demand to provide any other person with those goods, facilities, or services; or (b) to treat any other person less favourably in connection with the provision of those goods, facilities, or services than would otherwise be the case,— by reason of any of the prohibited grounds of discrimination.

...

21 Prohibited grounds of discrimination

(in particular in this case)
(m) sexual orientation, which means a heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual orientation.

Rikkitic

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#2054217 11-Jul-2018 12:12

I think we need to ask what religious faith actually means. For some it is an exalting spiritual experience, a personal connection with a higher power. I have known some people like this. They are wonderful to be around.

For others it is more like a list of things they are not supposed to do, a set of rules. Do this, don't do that if you want to stay on God's good side. I don't have much time for this kind of belief. I think it leads to a lot of mischief and unhappiness.

My answer to the Imam would be to say he shouldn't have to do anything he finds personally objectionable, but don't try to dress it up in religious mumbo-jumbo.

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Geektastic

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#2054218 11-Jul-2018 12:15

I don't know about you guys, but I surely would not want to eat a cake - or serve one to my wedding guests - made by someone who did not want to make it. Who knows what it might taste like?

Fred99

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#2054220 11-Jul-2018 12:19

6FIEND:

To examine it from a slightly different perspective - would it be reasonable for the baker to argue that she is not prepared to bake the cake on the basis of what the couple intend to do with it (Ie. To use it as a component of making a public declaration of their love for each other) because they find that offensive? Despite it being legal. Rather than refusing service to the customer because of who they are.

Again with the analogies...

Could we compel an Islamic Imam to perform a wedding ceremony for a gay couple?

1) No - and that's pretty well what happened isn't it?

2) No - that's because religious exceptions to Human Rights laws give special status to people who claim to be representing the invisible man in the sky or whatever.

Fred99

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#2054255 11-Jul-2018 12:26

Geektastic:

I don't know about you guys, but I surely would not want to eat a cake - or serve one to my wedding guests - made by someone who did not want to make it. Who knows what it might taste like?

Bitter bile, marinated in sour grapes.

I wouldn't eat it either - anybody so lacking moral fibre could be likely to "season it".

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#2054256 11-Jul-2018 12:26

The key here is tolerance. Tolerance of religious belief, tolerance of sexual orientation, tolerance of personal belief, tolerance rights and freedoms, tolerance of each other. Finally add in respect.

davidcole

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#2054259 11-Jul-2018 12:27

Fred99:

davidcole:

I thought any shop was in their rights to refuse a sale? Isn't buying something an offer to buy, that the shopkeeper is allowed to accept or not? I didn't think they had to give a reason. Just because. If I have this wrong, them my whole discussion point is mute. But that's how I understood the law.

No:

Interesting, I thought there was. And had a quick look int he Sale of goods act but there is not specific clause where the seller is able to refuse a sale:

In this case:

7 Existing or future goods (1) The goods which form the subject of a contract of sale may be either existing goods, owned or possessed by the seller, or goods to be manufactured or acquired by the seller after the making of the contract of sale, in this Act called future goods.

(2) There may be a contract for the sale of goods, the acquisition of which by the seller depends upon a contingency which may or may not happen.

(3) Where by a contract of sale the seller purports to effect a present sale of future goods, the contract operates as an agreement to sell the goods.

And under definition of a contract:

Part 1 - Formation of the contract Contract of sale 3 - Sale and agreement to sell

(1) A contract of sale of goods is a contract whereby the seller transfers or agrees to transfer the property in goods to the buyer for a money consideration, called the price.

(2) There may be a contract of sale between one part owner and another.

(3) A contract of sale may be absolute or conditional.

(4) Where under a contract of sale the property in the goods is transferred from the seller to the buyer the contract is calleda sale; but where the transfer of the property in the goods is to take place at a future time, or subject to some condition thereafter to be fulfilled, the contract is called an agreement to sell.

(5) An agreement to sell becomes a sale when the time elapses or the conditions are fulfilled subject to which the property in the goods is to be transferred.

Fred99

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#2054263 11-Jul-2018 12:30

davidcole:

Interesting, I thought there was. And had a quick look int he Sale of goods act.

Human Rights Act overrides that.

davidcole

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#2054279 11-Jul-2018 12:32

Fred99:

davidcole:

Interesting, I thought there was. And had a quick look int he Sale of goods act.

Human Rights Act overrides that.

yeah but if the provision was in there to refuse the sale (which there doesn't seem to be), then refusal - just because, would be valid as long as she didn't say because of orientation/race/religion etc.

Fred99

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#2054283 11-Jul-2018 12:36

MikeB4:

The key here is tolerance. Tolerance of religious belief, tolerance of sexual orientation, tolerance of personal belief, tolerance rights and freedoms, tolerance of each other. Finally add in respect.

I'm seeing less that around these days. I blame the USA.

There's also the "paradox of tolerance" to complicate things - and just like the other thread (now closed) where I brought that up, the consequences of the paradox make "great news" as examples and cause deep division / polarisation of opinion.

NZ has some good laws on these issues. We should just use them and get on with it - not revisit them every time some trolls like the "antigay" bakers hit the news. It's facilitating them - playing right into their hands.

Fred99

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#2054284 11-Jul-2018 12:38

davidcole:

Fred99:

davidcole:

Interesting, I thought there was. And had a quick look int he Sale of goods act.

Human Rights Act overrides that.

yeah but if the provision was in there to refuse the sale (which there doesn't seem to be), then refusal - just because, would be valid as long as she didn't say because of orientation/race/religion etc.

But.She.Did.

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