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GV27
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  #3127736 14-Sep-2023 13:56
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evilengineer:

 

Where as at the same time National keep trying to tell us that tax cuts aren't inflationary.

 

Which is nonsense on stilts as well.

 

 

Are they more inflationary then helicopter payments made because you're starting to lose the political narrative?

 

If not then Hipkins should probably mind his step. 




evilengineer
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  #3127815 14-Sep-2023 16:09
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GV27:

 

evilengineer:

 

Where as at the same time National keep trying to tell us that tax cuts aren't inflationary.

 

Which is nonsense on stilts as well.

 

 

Are they more inflationary then helicopter payments made because you're starting to lose the political narrative?

 

If not then Hipkins should probably mind his step. 

 

 

I don't know which is the more inflationary out of the two, but for National to say their tax cuts aren't while Labour's "out of control" spending is fueling inflation is nothing but rank hypocrisy.

 

Taking fresh money injected into the system by foreigners (via house sales) and then handing that money out in the form of a tax cut most certainly is inflationary.

 

As is the fact that the remainder of the money that stays in the vendor's hands will most likely be recycled back into the property market at the same time as property investors start sniffing around again thanks to their new tax breaks.

 

National's whole tax plan could also quite reasonably be described as a "helicopter payment". Although at $20 to $40 a week for most people it's not a particularly impressive one. Particularly given that a reignited house price/rent spiral will soon eat that up.


ockel
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  #3127822 14-Sep-2023 16:17

GV27:

 

evilengineer:

 

Where as at the same time National keep trying to tell us that tax cuts aren't inflationary.

 

Which is nonsense on stilts as well.

 

 

Are they more inflationary then helicopter payments made because you're starting to lose the political narrative?

 

If not then Hipkins should probably mind his step. 

 

 

You dont even need to go back to the helicopter payments to talk about the Labour Governments inflationary spending.  Claiming that this years budget wasnt expansionary was a joke.  And yet some people think that the Finance Minister is doing a good job.  Its hard to spot when the Covid spending was (and ended) in the financials.  And next years spending will increase by another $11bn (only $2bn of this is increased finance costs) - even after the Finance Ministers $1bn savings.  Unbridled spending.  

 





Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination" 




evilengineer
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  #3127854 14-Sep-2023 17:01
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And yet our debt to GDP ratios are still low by international comparisons, PREFU came back not as bad as feared and we've literally just got favourable reports back from the big credit rating agencies.

 

The sky isn't about to collapse on our heads, we've just dealt with a pandemic, there's a cyclone recovery to pay for as well as a decades long infrastructure deficit, if we want doctors/nurses/teachers etc we need to pay for them, etc., etc., etc.

 

Inflation has been a world wide problem

 

Austerity doesn't work and scare mongering to justify tax cuts is dishonest.   


gzt

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  #3127857 14-Sep-2023 17:14
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GV27:
evilengineer: Where as at the same time National keep trying to tell us that tax cuts aren't inflationary.
Are they more inflationary then helicopter payments [snip]

Numerous studies have shown helicopter payments to people struggling at the bottom are spent primarily on average, on essentials, and things like school supplies, food, additional winter warmth, etc. Those payments are used for short term bumps. That is the theory behind it. Ie; A tax cut at the top end is just more disposable income above food and essentials and is therefore inflationary in many circumstances. I'm well aware of the numerous edge cases, but that's the theory on average.

ockel
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  #3127869 14-Sep-2023 18:01

evilengineer:

 

And yet our debt to GDP ratios are still low by international comparisons, PREFU came back not as bad as feared and we've literally just got favourable reports back from the big credit rating agencies.

 

The sky isn't about to collapse on our heads, we've just dealt with a pandemic, there's a cyclone recovery to pay for as well as a decades long infrastructure deficit, if we want doctors/nurses/teachers etc we need to pay for them, etc., etc., etc.

 

Inflation has been a world wide problem

 

Austerity doesn't work and scare mongering to justify tax cuts is dishonest.   

 

 

And I'll say it again.  PREFU is laughable. Its as optimistic as the budget was. The ability for Treasury to see 3 months ahead is poor let alone 12 months ahead.  In May this year they were $3bn short of forecasting compared to the actual financial result.  Thats a $3bn miss.  If you were a CFO, fincon or even a junior management accountant and you were 50% wrong in your bottom line from your 10mth forecasts (just 2 months short of fiscal reporting) would you still have a job?  

 

 

At the Budget in May Treasury was forecasting a $7bn deficit for 2024.  Its already out to $11bn deficit despite the $1bn in cost savings announced by the finance minister.  But its not that bad? Really? You dont think a 50% increase in our deficit for this year is not that bad?  The first thing analysts do wrt financial reporting is analyse the current result and then look at the prospective forecasts.  Very few reporters have actually tweaked to the fact that the last year was so much worse than promised.  But everyone is looking to the fairytale of the future.

 

If we print a $11bn deficit (thats more than 3% of GDP) then the ratings agencies (who did a good job with the GFC (sic)) will have to downgrade.  

 

Dont forget that this is all OPERATIONAL spending.  The spend on cyclone recovery and infrastructure deficit is CAPITAL spending.  A whole different bucket.  Usually funded out of FCF and borrowings.  But if your FCF is negative then how do you pay for it??????   You guessed it.......





Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination" 


 
 
 
 

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GV27
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  #3127986 15-Sep-2023 06:06
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gzt: Ie; A tax cut at the top end is just more disposable income above food and essentials and is therefore inflationary in many circumstances. I'm well aware of the numerous edge cases, but that's the theory on average.

 

National is not proposing a tax cut at the top end, so that's not much of a problem. 

 

I struggle to see how Labour can claim a high ground when they will likely be stinging minimum wage earners at 30% in income tax on part of their earnings. 

 

And leaving tax rates so long without indexing for inflation shouldn't mean you then get to try and look responsible by scare-mongering when someone suggests actually doing it. Might have been arguable at 2% inflation, but not when Crown spending is exploding and food inflation is running at close to 10%.

 

They've really lost any credibility when it comes to the concerns for well-being for people at the lower end at this point. 


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  #3127991 15-Sep-2023 06:38
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ockel:

 

And I'll say it again.  PREFU is laughable. Its as optimistic as the budget was. The ability for Treasury to see 3 months ahead is poor let alone 12 months ahead.  In May this year they were $3bn short of forecasting compared to the actual financial result.  Thats a $3bn miss.  If you were a CFO, fincon or even a junior management accountant and you were 50% wrong in your bottom line from your 10mth forecasts (just 2 months short of fiscal reporting) would you still have a job?  

 

 

For PREFU to be even remotely ball-park (and it won't be) it would require Labour to show the kind of restraint they haven't been able to muster at any point in the last six years. You'd give them a pass on the Covid years, but spending simply hasn't dropped back to anywhere near where it was. 

 

There is so, so much more scrutiny of National's proposed tax plans than the madness of Treasury or RBNZ forecasts being constantly wrong, even in the short term and in some cases, shortly after already being revised. It's maddening, but there never seems to be any fall-out or conversations about how much of our fiscal and monetary policy is being based off data that is just nowhere close to actual reality. 

 

Access to social services like health, education and law and order are the key parts of our social contract that give the government license to collect taxation. Those are getting worse and taxes are increasing each year through a lack of indexing at a time of high inflation. Actually fixing these is borderline impossible if you can't even get the basics of forecasting correctly. 

 

We are rapidly approaching failed-but-functioning state status. Not too dissimilar to the US and their mounting debt problem. We just aren't as far down the road as they are. 


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  #3127998 15-Sep-2023 07:06
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I would just like National to show us the money.

 


GV27
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  #3128012 15-Sep-2023 08:14
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At this point I'm more interested in what ACT come back with. They've said PREFU was so bad that they need to rethink their tax policy as the interest burden on the country will be too high if we don't get core debt under control. I don't think I'll agree with whatever they propose, but at least they're saying "Well, this might change a few things, brb with an updated idea of what we can do". 

 

Other parties are blindly pressing on and tbh I think that kind of pragmatism in the face of facts changing should be commended, even in parties I have a hard time finding common ground with. 


ockel
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  #3128249 15-Sep-2023 17:21

GV27:

 

For PREFU to be even remotely ball-park (and it won't be) it would require Labour to show the kind of restraint they haven't been able to muster at any point in the last six years. You'd give them a pass on the Covid years, but spending simply hasn't dropped back to anywhere near where it was. 

 

There is so, so much more scrutiny of National's proposed tax plans than the madness of Treasury or RBNZ forecasts being constantly wrong, even in the short term and in some cases, shortly after already being revised. It's maddening, but there never seems to be any fall-out or conversations about how much of our fiscal and monetary policy is being based off data that is just nowhere close to actual reality. 

 

Access to social services like health, education and law and order are the key parts of our social contract that give the government license to collect taxation. Those are getting worse and taxes are increasing each year through a lack of indexing at a time of high inflation. Actually fixing these is borderline impossible if you can't even get the basics of forecasting correctly. 

 

We are rapidly approaching failed-but-functioning state status. Not too dissimilar to the US and their mounting debt problem. We just aren't as far down the road as they are. 

 

 

The madness is that between May and September there has been little change in view on revenue generated.  But expenses have increased in every year including FY24 despite the Budget being a budget for the 2024 year.   The numbers on the left are from the Budget (BEFU23) and the right from PREFU.  We know the Finance Minister has lopped $1bn pa off the spending for the next 4 years but spending for this year alone has leapt $2.5bn from when departmental budgets were approved at BEFU.  

 

 

I dont rate Hooton's column in the NZH given he's an ACT mouthpiece but he draws some scary parallels to 1984 and 1990.  One does feel that if Willis becomes Finance Minister then we could be in for a repeat of the Mother of All Budgets.  Quite frightening for the country.





Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination" 


 
 
 
 

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gzt

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  #3128277 15-Sep-2023 18:55
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I must say I reacted with surprise if not actual disbelief when I heard a couple of days ago Willis said she would resign as finance minister if National's tax cut promise was not implemented:

OneNews: The National Party’s finance spokesperson and deputy leader Nicola Willis said should she be finance minister after the election and her party fail to deliver its pledged tax reduction plan, she would resign.

This used to be a common promise in politics. It is no longer common for a reason. Almost inevitably - the person making the promise does not resign and then claims a number of reasons why it's a special case and they won't resign ; ).

gzt

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  #3128310 15-Sep-2023 19:53
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That might have come about if National has a belief it's In a war with ACT for the tax cut vote. Then ACT came out after that and said they would have to rethink the ACTs planned tax cuts. I think I know what that means but anyway classy move there ACT : ).

tdgeek

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  #3128662 16-Sep-2023 17:20
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gzt: I must say I reacted with surprise if not actual disbelief when I heard a couple of days ago Willis said she would resign as finance minister if National's tax cut promise was not implemented:

OneNews: The National Party’s finance spokesperson and deputy leader Nicola Willis said should she be finance minister after the election and her party fail to deliver its pledged tax reduction plan, she would resign.

This used to be a common promise in politics. It is no longer common for a reason. Almost inevitably - the person making the promise does not resign and then claims a number of reasons why it's a special case and they won't resign ; ).

 

Luxon said him and Nicola are good with numbers, so credibility sorted!


tdgeek

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  #3128663 16-Sep-2023 17:23
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GV27:

 

At this point I'm more interested in what ACT come back with. They've said PREFU was so bad that they need to rethink their tax policy as the interest burden on the country will be too high if we don't get core debt under control. I don't think I'll agree with whatever they propose, but at least they're saying "Well, this might change a few things, brb with an updated idea of what we can do". 

 

Other parties are blindly pressing on and tbh I think that kind of pragmatism in the face of facts changing should be commended, even in parties I have a hard time finding common ground with. 

 

 

That would be an excuse?


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