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Awrrr
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#2177929 13-Feb-2019 20:36

Here is an interesting commentary from a few months ago on our governments in general. They all seem pretty good. Even this one.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

wsnz

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#2177969 13-Feb-2019 21:08

Fred99:

It wasn't "within Labour". The review has called on expertise from all over - non partisan. The partisan part is Hipkins having the guts to turn something seriously broken on its head

I did not state it was solely within Labour. There was (according to our local MP who attended the meeting) a large volume of discussion within the internal ranks about the best path forward. Centralisation was seen as the key, with some independent advice provided.

Fred99:

So far, what I've seen seems okay/good.

The entire education sector needs to be overhauled. Bring it on. They do measure outcomes and look at costs. The system has been broken. National - had they been in power - would have been facing the same stark dilemma.

National overhauled the funding model from a bums-on-seats approach which (saw the Cambrian-like explosion of providers in the early 00's) to an outcome based model, now it's back to Labour's turn. What will the final design look like? Until I see actual details rather that the usual lofty goals that governments left and right love to trot out, I will reserve judgement.

Speaking with colleagues in the health sector, they have hear mutterings of a similar urgent review being conducted in their sector, with four to five super regions being created and centralisation of admin functions. I suspect the fun isn't over quite yet.

wsnz

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#2177975 13-Feb-2019 21:24

tdgeek:

I am in favour. It makes sense to almost everyone. While the centralised merge would not be hard to implement, other factors such as programming may evolve over time. In business this is what happens as BAU.

The devil will be in the detail, and that's what I'm waiting to receive before passing opinion. E.g. What will the local groups be comprised of? What level of decision making will regional/national bodies have in delivery (bearing in mind that the NZQA and TEC already have significant sway)? What level of qualification/unit overlap will be allowed on an inter and intra regional basis? Will funding be raised? If so, for what specifically? So many questions.... I'll have to wait.

dejadeadnz

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#2177979 13-Feb-2019 21:30

networkn:

Private conversation. Quite sure you have said things in what you believe are private conversations you would not have wanted made public. I know I have.

If you don't think Ms Ardern or Mr Peters haven't said as much or similar, then I think you live in a fairy tale world. The only difference is, there isn't a tape of it leaked (yet).

There is a difference between this, and mocking someones speech impediment or speech patterns (or in fact that they look like a kicked puppy, a phrase I am sure you are aware of) something they may or may not have control over.

What exactly is the difference between making race-based stereotypes versus mocking someone for, wait for it, things that they also have no control over? None, of course. But you are a partisan and you will twist anything, any logic, fact, or whatever else, to defend National. That's the difference.

Yawn.

tdgeek

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#2177989 13-Feb-2019 21:50

wsnz:

I did not state it was solely within Labour. There was (according to our local MP who attended the meeting) a large volume of discussion within the internal ranks about the best path forward. Centralisation was seen as the key, with some independent advice provided.

National overhauled the funding model from a bums-on-seats approach which (saw the Cambrian-like explosion of providers in the early 00's) to an outcome based model, now it's back to Labour's turn. What will the final design look like? Until I see actual details rather that the usual lofty goals that governments left and right love to trot out, I will reserve judgement.

Speaking with colleagues in the health sector, they have hear mutterings of a similar urgent review being conducted in their sector, with four to five super regions being created and centralisation of admin functions. I suspect the fun isn't over quite yet.

1.You actually did. Internal discussions within Labour cannot mean anything else except internal discussions within Labour.

2. Look, Im giving up on discussing topics with people that make stuff up or throw in fake terms such as Labours turn, lofty goals, mutterings, urgent review. Best to keep to the facts we know. Its not Labours turn.Its the turn of any Govt that wants to fix a broken education system, that isn't giving the employers what they want and is costing us 100 million so far, much more to come if nothing done. Odds on if National was in power, they would have been pressured to do something. Its not a card game, its not about turns. This issue is non partisan in any case, although, clearly non partisan with employers and manufactures, those aligned with National, who actually dont want to know based on todays comments from them.Labour and business will take care of it, ironic. Lofty goals. Well what can you do , its borked big time. Hipkins says they want to fix to properly, you cannot keep patching it, which is just propping it ip financially, that still leaves the employers not getting what they need. Mutterings. We don't want to hear about mutterings, thats just speculative noise to enhance your opinion, its not real . Urgent. Who says it was urgent?? Its been no secret, if it was urgent it would have started last Feb. Its started around August or a bit before. It's important, like many things.

tdgeek

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#2177991 13-Feb-2019 21:57

wsnz:

Speaking with colleagues in the health sector, they have hear mutterings of a similar urgent review being conducted in their sector, with four to five super regions being created and centralisation of admin functions. I suspect the fun isn't over quite yet.

I wouldn't call it fun. It's running the country, by whoever happens to be in power at any given time. That comment makes light of this, as if the actual issue is not important its partisanship and nothing else, which is this thread for some

Its quite possible that DHB's head down a similar track, its common in business. Rationalise. Centralisation reduces costs, it also makes sure that processes are standardised. Those are good things. Whoever makes that speculated decision, will clearly involve all key stakeholders, as this Polytechnic issue already has

Im not sure why Im having to explain this, unless there is a resistance to change? We dont want to change for the sake of it, these examples are not that.

tdgeek

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#2177994 13-Feb-2019 22:04

wsnz:

tdgeek:

I am in favour. It makes sense to almost everyone. While the centralised merge would not be hard to implement, other factors such as programming may evolve over time. In business this is what happens as BAU.

The devil will be in the detail, and that's what I'm waiting to receive before passing opinion. E.g. What will the local groups be comprised of? What level of decision making will regional/national bodies have in delivery (bearing in mind that the NZQA and TEC already have significant sway)? What level of qualification/unit overlap will be allowed on an inter and intra regional basis? Will funding be raised? If so, for what specifically? So many questions.... I'll have to wait.

I agree, so many questions. I expect the direction they will go is already 95% decided. The 6 week period is just public feedback, its not from stakeholders, the stakeholders have been part of this decision making process. The Government, union, employers and manufactures, Chamber of Commerce are involved, so the ideal outcome is it all works for everyone. No reason why it cannot if everyone is on board and part of the process. Students will be educated more efficiently, on courses that the employers want, and with more interaction with employers as regards student involvement as part of the courses. This already happens, but making this better. Everyone can be a winner, as it will be what we have now, but better and better supporting all stakeholders. Hence my surprise this has become such a big deal here.

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tdgeek

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#2177998 13-Feb-2019 22:31

Helping some of you out

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/jacinda-ardern-breaks-the-first-promise-she-made-as-labour-leader.html

You can discuss this amongst yourselves all day tomorrow.

tdgeek

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#2178000 13-Feb-2019 22:38

Here is another goody. I see this type of thing in state elections in the US, now its here

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/all-sizzle-no-sausage-national-roasted-for-sexist-bbq-attack-ad-on-labour.html

GV27

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#2178025 14-Feb-2019 07:14

tdgeek:

Here is another goody. I see this type of thing in state elections in the US, now its here

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/all-sizzle-no-sausage-national-roasted-for-sexist-bbq-attack-ad-on-labour.html

Yea the issue warranting a full article with unchallenged social media reactions here is a crappy ad, not the total failure and backflip of a key campaign policy platform at all.

I can't help but feel one deserves a lot more scrutiny than the other, but funnily enough the ultra-reactionary "YAS QWEEN" Wellington Twitter crowd do not feel the same. Yet here we are getting their views served up. Then again it is Newshub so I'm not sure what I expected.

tdgeek

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#2178037 14-Feb-2019 07:44

GV27:

tdgeek:

Here is another goody. I see this type of thing in state elections in the US, now its here

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/all-sizzle-no-sausage-national-roasted-for-sexist-bbq-attack-ad-on-labour.html

Yea the issue warranting a full article with unchallenged social media reactions here is a crappy ad, not the total failure and backflip of a key campaign policy platform at all.

I can't help but feel one deserves a lot more scrutiny than the other, but funnily enough the ultra-reactionary "YAS QWEEN" Wellington Twitter crowd do not feel the same. Yet here we are getting their views served up. Then again it is Newshub so I'm not sure what I expected.

I agree in part. As I see here often and generally, whatever site you use will give the view you want. I assume the fails of Kiwibuild still make Newshub? A quick scan shows it seems to swing both ways, but with Garner there, well...

Total failure? Ok, we wont go there, last time I looked it was still in place, and a guy still holding a hmmer

Its true that Coalition deserves more scrutiny, yes that's obvious. That scrutiny needs to be factual, and not an annoyed blue vent, free of excess rhetoric. Thats typical for some here, not you though. This is a Coalition thread, so if someone supports/defends National that's ok, if someone supports/defends the Coalition that's a problem. I won't be wasting my time on that anymore, a response will get what it deserves, constructive and factual is preferred

Fred99

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#2178038 14-Feb-2019 07:48

GV27:

tdgeek:

Here is another goody. I see this type of thing in state elections in the US, now its here

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/all-sizzle-no-sausage-national-roasted-for-sexist-bbq-attack-ad-on-labour.html

Yea the issue warranting a full article with unchallenged social media reactions here is a crappy ad, not the total failure and backflip of a key campaign policy platform at all.

I can't help but feel one deserves a lot more scrutiny than the other, but funnily enough the ultra-reactionary "YAS QWEEN" Wellington Twitter crowd do not feel the same. Yet here we are getting their views served up. Then again it is Newshub so I'm not sure what I expected.

That's whataboutism - "Trump style"

The ad is deliberately offensive on multiple levels, that's also "Trump style".

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#2178040 14-Feb-2019 07:54

On that ad though, that's a mistake. It will backfire here. I still recall one LA state election I was watching in the US. One guy in his speech talked about the other guy getting in trouble for stealing when he was a young kid. Dirty laundry as well was common. In NZ, we would look down at negative ads, they should be looking at positive ads at criticising things like Kiwibuild. People here love facts when they hear 4 points why its failing, with facts, they will take that. When they see a crappy ad like this, they will see that as sour grapes

tdgeek

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#2178043 14-Feb-2019 08:01

Fred99:

That's whataboutism - "Trump style"

The ad is deliberately offensive on multiple levels, that's also "Trump style".

It is. Its in most anti coalition posts. As I just posted "That scrutiny needs to be factual, and not an annoyed blue vent, free of excess rhetoric"

If that post was about National, it would generate multi posts saying you are extremely biased. However, said poster is usually considered and civil

GV27

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#2178044 14-Feb-2019 08:03

Fred99:

That's whataboutism - "Trump style"

The ad is deliberately offensive on multiple levels, that's also "Trump style".

Yawn. The outrage is the whataboutism here - "ignore the actual Kiwibuild issues, National thinks women are bad!" It used to be called a sleight-of-hand but now it has a fancy politics 2.0 name.

tdgeek:

On that ad though, that's a mistake. It will backfire here. I still recall one LA state election I was watching in the US. One guy in his speech talked about the other guy getting in trouble for stealing when he was a young kid. Dirty laundry as well was common. In NZ, we would look down at negative ads, they should be looking at positive ads at criticising things like Kiwibuild. People here love facts when they hear 4 points why its failing, with facts, they will take that. When they see a crappy ad like this, they will see that as sour grapes

The ad itself is diabolical though, there's literally no way anyone who had anything to do with this should get any more work out of National.

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