The Prime Minister and the waitress

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#1289449 22-Apr-2015 15:40

Zeon: And I know you will lambaste me for saying this but did she really object all the times until he was told that she actually wanted to stop? Not doing anything about it could encourage the behavior to continue - maybe she should have said no the first time if she didn't want it. Yes its not really appropriate in NZ society's eyes to do this it seems so it was unwise for him to do so.

She was probably impressed with security guys around, didn't want to lose her job, or whatever reason felt threatened and not in a good spot to say no.

There could be multiple reason. Just because she didn't say it at first doesn't mean she welcomed it - and doesn't mean he was free to continue doing it.

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#1289451 22-Apr-2015 15:42

freitasm: I voted for Mr Key twice.

Aha! It's *your* fault!

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#1289452 22-Apr-2015 15:44

Zeon:
And I know you will lambaste me for saying this but did she really object all the times until he was told that she actually wanted to stop? Not doing anything about it could encourage the behavior to continue - maybe she should have said no the first time if she didn't want it. Yes its not really appropriate in NZ society's eyes to do this it seems so it was unwise for him to do so.

And no I am not a middle-aged/old white male and consider myself pretty culturally progressive. I am probably younger than the waitress! I would usually call anyone up to 30 a girl, most like it. I can switch to referring to them as "middle aged women" but I think most would prefer the former....

Dear god (says the atheist, but in times like these...!), where do I start??!!

I'm quite happy to come out and say this - your posts on this thread repulse and scare me - scare me as they're representative of a perspective that appears to be endemic in an unfortunately high proportion of NZ society - call it "victim blaming" or whatever, but I do see altering these kinds of views as critical in picking apart and dismantling what some would call "rape culture".

I guess "culturally progressive" can be seen as a relative term...

Demeter

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#1289454 22-Apr-2015 15:46

networkn: Let's cut to the chase then, in your opinion, what should happen now? Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?

Ehh... I don't think something like this deserves severe punishment (in my opinion). I wouldn't have blamed the woman if she personally retaliated in a physical way at the time, but she has had her say now and done us a public service. The humiliation this has caused has seen to it that he hopefully gets the picture now that touching someone that he has no business touching is not allowed. If it never happens again, I guess it's a win for everyone. If it does happen again... well...

MileHighKiwi

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#1289456 22-Apr-2015 15:50

He overstepped a line, was made aware of it, and apologised. What do people want? an impeachment?

SaltyNZ

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#1289460 22-Apr-2015 15:53

networkn:

Let's cut to the chase then, in your opinion, what should happen now? Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?

The power imbalance is the key (no pun intended) here. If it was me (just some random guy) who pulled her hair, and kept doing it, I'd expect to be told off by her, and her manager, and possibly asked not to come back to the cafe again. I probably wouldn't expect to get arrested over it, and if I was, I'd expect the police would probably give me a good frightening and then let me go.

But this man is the Prime Minister, and he arrives with an escort of minders and bodyguards. When it's him that does it, the dynamic is completely different. This is a man that you could easily expect to make your life a living hell if you crossed him - rightly or wrongly; this is NZ after all, there are limits - but in any case he's the most powerful man in the country. You cannot get any more intimidating by your mere presence without openly carrying a gun. There is absolutely no way he doesn't know that. And without wanting to go all Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. We just should not see men or women in his position doing such inappropriate and immature things in public, and he must know that.

I honestly don't know what the punishment should be. Should he be sacked over it? I think that's a bridge too far, and let's be honest, it's not going to happen so it's pointless to even speculate. But at the very least he needs to be humble and apologise properly and sincerely about it - genuinely humble and apologetic, in private, not just 'to be seen as' in public with a hundred cameras to document his magnificent speech. I think that's the one thing he would struggle with the most, because I think he's an arrogant so-and-so, and therefore the most appropriate response.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

networkn

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#1289471 22-Apr-2015 15:59

KiwiNZ:
networkn:
SaltyNZ:
surfisup1000: a completely different situation but you know that I think.

Well, you're right; on the one hand we have a situation where the hair-puller would get a short sharp arresting, and on the other we have the Prime Minister of New Zealand pulling the hair of a woman who works in a cafe.

Let me repeat that: the Prime Minister of New Zealand pulling the hair of a woman who works in a cafe.

In what universe is that the kind of thing we want our Prime Minister to be doing? Should he start crumpling empty Lion Red cans on the foreheads of random men he walks past and call them Bruce? Where exactly do we draw the line on what is and is not Prime-Ministerly public behaviour?

Let's cut to the chase then, in your opinion, what should happen now? Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?

If the circumstances are as presented and one could assume that given his apology they are then he should resign.

Wow. Just WOW. Well I asked I guess.

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geekiegeek

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#1289492 22-Apr-2015 16:06

freitasm:
networkn:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: I can see calls for his resignation. I ask myself what would he do if this were one of his Ministers or a member of one of the other parties.

I'm surprised I haven't seen calls for that already. Not that it will matter.

Thankfully.

He should be admonished and apologise, and that should be the end of it (Again assuming the facts are accurate and provided in correct context). We are a small country though and this will go on for weeks no doubt.

edit: He has already apologised. If the country has any sense it will now move on and focus on issues that affect more than a single person, like unemployment, Christchurch rebuild or the housing market.

He didn't "apologise". He gave her a couple of bottles of wine. Publicly I think this is not even close.

Did you read her story?

“this is for you, sorry, I didn’t realise.”

Looks like an apology to me and as others have said if she had just said she didn't like it the first time that would have been the end of it.

Would love to know this persons political affiliations "The waitress contacted us with her story"

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#1289503 22-Apr-2015 16:08

In a Cafe wouldn't the conversation normally go along the lines of "When you stop touching my hair I'll stop spitting in your coffee."?

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#1289504 22-Apr-2015 16:08

freitasm: I voted for Mr Key twice. I will probably not vote for him again.

Assuming your decision is based on this story, that’s exactly the reaction the blogger was hoping for.

networkn: ... it would be considered at the very smallest end of offending. I would expect the police would opt not to prosecute and even if they did, what would the likely outcome be?

And I suspect that the police would take that same decision regardless of whether it was Key or anyone else.

networkn: Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?

I think the fact that he’s PM should also be put aside. As PM he should know better, but it was a strange and inappropriate thing to do - anyone should know better. If the waitress wants to lay a complaint with the police, they should treat it as they would a complaint against anyone, PM, MP, random anonymous patron, co-worker...

zeon: And I know you will lambaste me for saying this but did she really object all the times until he was told that she actually wanted to stop? Not doing anything about it could encourage the behaviour to continue - maybe she should have said no the first time if she didn't want it.

I said this before. It’s hard to tell from the original article how many times this happened. There are at least four incidents specifically mentioned before the waitress says something – which is to her manager, not Key – but she also says “So the game continued. He would come up behind me when I was at the ordering terminal, tug on my hair and then pretend that his wife, Bronagh, had done it...” So it happened on other occasions. We don’t know how many, but it is worded to sound like more than one. If she was really uncomfortable about it, she should have said so after the first incident, and definitely after the second, not after the sixth (or more). But I was victim blaming.

On another note, growing up, I was taught that if you have a problem with somebody you talk to them about it. If that doesn’t work then you take it further, which used to mean talking to somebody in authority, e.g. a parent, teacher, boss, the council, police, etc. These days it seems the first step is to post your story on social media.

networkn

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#1289506 22-Apr-2015 16:11

SaltyNZ:
networkn:

Let's cut to the chase then, in your opinion, what should happen now? Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?

The power imbalance is the key (no pun intended) here. If it was me (just some random guy) who pulled her hair, and kept doing it, I'd expect to be told off by her, and her manager, and possibly asked not to come back to the cafe again. I probably wouldn't expect to get arrested over it, and if I was, I'd expect the police would probably give me a good frightening and then let me go.

But this man is the Prime Minister, and he arrives with an escort of minders and bodyguards. When it's him that does it, the dynamic is completely different. This is a man that you could easily expect to make your life a living hell if you crossed him - rightly or wrongly; this is NZ after all, there are limits - but in any case he's the most powerful man in the country. You cannot get any more intimidating by your mere presence without openly carrying a gun. There is absolutely no way he doesn't know that. And without wanting to go all Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. We just should not see men or women in his position doing such inappropriate and immature things in public, and he must know that.

I honestly don't know what the punishment should be. Should he be sacked over it? I think that's a bridge too far, and let's be honest, it's not going to happen so it's pointless to even speculate. But at the very least he needs to be humble and apologise properly and sincerely about it - genuinely humble and apologetic, in private, not just 'to be seen as' in public with a hundred cameras to document his magnificent speech. I think that's the one thing he would struggle with the most, because I think he's an arrogant so-and-so, and therefore the most appropriate response.

Interesting because I wouldn't characterise him as particularly arrogant related to this situation. I believe he has apologized, but only she will likely know if that was heartfelt. (I believe he is a decent person and wouldn't have wanted to frighten or hurt her) One thing I know is that he wouldn't be doing it again. If he did then I'd expect more serious consequence.

I think he is now clear about how it's been perceived regardless of how it was intended. (Which I honestly believe was innocent and non sexual).

I seriously doubt he could or would make her life a living hell, unless she is lying in which case I'd expect him to call her out on it, and I'd expect HER to be facing consequences.

freitasm

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#1289507 22-Apr-2015 16:11

andrew027:
freitasm: I voted for Mr Key twice. I will probably not vote for him again.

Assuming your decision is based on this story, that’s exactly the reaction the blogger was hoping for.

Not only based on this story. But based on all his actions in the last two or three years. His non-committal comments when someone points something wrong in the government, the smug attitude when talking down other politicians, and other things.

freitasm

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#1289511 22-Apr-2015 16:13

networkn:
SaltyNZ:
networkn:

Let's cut to the chase then, in your opinion, what should happen now? Putting aside everything EXCEPT the fact he is PM and he pulled this girls hair, what should his punishment be?

The power imbalance is the key (no pun intended) here. If it was me (just some random guy) who pulled her hair, and kept doing it, I'd expect to be told off by her, and her manager, and possibly asked not to come back to the cafe again. I probably wouldn't expect to get arrested over it, and if I was, I'd expect the police would probably give me a good frightening and then let me go.

But this man is the Prime Minister, and he arrives with an escort of minders and bodyguards. When it's him that does it, the dynamic is completely different. This is a man that you could easily expect to make your life a living hell if you crossed him - rightly or wrongly; this is NZ after all, there are limits - but in any case he's the most powerful man in the country. You cannot get any more intimidating by your mere presence without openly carrying a gun. There is absolutely no way he doesn't know that. And without wanting to go all Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. We just should not see men or women in his position doing such inappropriate and immature things in public, and he must know that.

I honestly don't know what the punishment should be. Should he be sacked over it? I think that's a bridge too far, and let's be honest, it's not going to happen so it's pointless to even speculate. But at the very least he needs to be humble and apologise properly and sincerely about it - genuinely humble and apologetic, in private, not just 'to be seen as' in public with a hundred cameras to document his magnificent speech. I think that's the one thing he would struggle with the most, because I think he's an arrogant so-and-so, and therefore the most appropriate response.

Interesting because I wouldn't characterise him as particularly arrogant related to this situation. I believe he has apologized, but only she will likely know if that was heartfelt. (I believe he is a decent person and wouldn't have wanted to frighten or hurt her) One thing I know is that he wouldn't be doing it again. If he did then I'd expect more serious consequence.

I think he is now clear about how it's been perceived regardless of how it was intended. (Which I honestly believe was innocent and non sexual).

I seriously doubt he could or would make her life a living hell, unless she is lying in which case I'd expect him to call her out on it, and I'd expect HER to be facing consequences.

The way you put the uppercase word "HER" it makes it look like you don't believe her story, or wish the story was not as it is being told.

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#1289515 22-Apr-2015 16:16

Bung: In a Cafe wouldn't the conversation normally go along the lines of "When you stop touching my hair I'll stop spitting in your coffee."?

From the sexual deviant GZ is making him out to be, he may well like that.

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#1289516 22-Apr-2015 16:16

About all I gain from reading all this is that the world has become a very very dull place.

If this constitutes assault, the time when my wife worked in the City and a broker came up to her in a bar at a work do, grabbed her boobs and shouted "Honk honk" back in the 80's must be a hanging offence now....

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