More dodgy Bitcoin goings on....

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › More dodgy Bitcoin goings on....

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Ultimate Geek

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#1000691 7-Mar-2014 12:39

DravidDavid: Bitcoin is no different to the worthless paper money we trade at the moment. Bitcoin is worth something because people give it value, just like a fifty dollar note.

Is there anything in the world that isn't worth something only because we give it value?

Speedtest

MikeB4

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#1000692 7-Mar-2014 12:49

Currency in itself has no real tangible value, the intrinsic value is determined by the economic analysis and health of the Nation. Currency is a trading vehicles, Bank notes are a Bill of exchange backed by it's intrinsic value. A cheque is a Promissory Note where the writer promises the bearer or named bearer the sum quoted, it's value is in the intrinsic value of the traded currency. A Bitcoin has no tangible value and no intrinsic value as it is not backed as in currency.

turnin

509 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1000753 7-Mar-2014 14:03

Bitcoin still, after all this, trades at over $ 600.00 but you have to look at who want bitcoin to survive and who does not.
does anyone really think that global bankers and govt's who spend billions destabilising nations , creating wars etc would not try as hard as they could to destabilise something that poses such a threat as bitcoin does. hence with all due respect to the times of london who are part of a very blinkered media, they are about as biased as they are told to be.
If the US were to stop printing their own currency the world economy would fall flat in an instant.
The issues with the stolen bitcoins (correct me if I am wrong) are that Mt Gox used both hot - connected and cold-isolated wallets. Someone found a way to remove bitcoins from MtGox's hot wallets whilst selling the same bitcoins back to Mt Gox that they already had in their cold wallets. 850,000 of them. Their accounting system is to blame here, not the currency it's self.
The thing people fail to recognise is that there will only ever be 21 million bitcoins you can't just print more like you can a fiat currency. either way crypto curencies are fairer and way less likely to be used for crime than the US dollar :)

turnin

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Ultimate Geek
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#1000761 7-Mar-2014 14:20

greenbone:
KiwiNZ:
greenbone:
ubergeeknz: The thing is it *can* be cheated, you just need to control enough nodes which are keeping ledgers...

i *can* also walk on the moon, i just need enough money to fund a space program

technically not impossible, but very very expensive and requires a huge amount of resources

if there is a way to cheat something underground resources are always found

lets say you are right. an underground syndicate comes up with the many billions of dollars and technical knowhow to implement a 51 percent attack on the network

the attack is successful - blockchain transactions are altered - the syndicate moves bitcoin to address in their control

given that the blockchain is a global ledger, everyone can see this occuring in real time. what then happens to the price of bitcoin? yep, zero

so the underground syndicate has spent billions of dollars acquiring digital trinkets worth zero. great plan

Exactly, the bitcoin hashpower is many many times more powerful than the total processing power of ALL of the world super computers combined.
a 51% attack has never been performed, the theft of coins from MtGox was due to their poor security ( leaving coins in their online wallets and not checking these against their cold wallet ledgers as explained above) - which is just total naivety. But it's good news in the sense that crypto banks need standards and these issues will be adressed. Very early days for crypto. I notice too that several high profile bankers all dropped dead a few weeks ago, is tat a sign that fiat is on its way out too.?

hashbrown

463 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1000762 7-Mar-2014 14:27

KiwiNZ: Currency in itself has no real tangible value, the intrinsic value is determined by the economic analysis and health of the Nation. Currency is a trading vehicles, Bank notes are a Bill of exchange backed by it's intrinsic value. A cheque is a Promissory Note where the writer promises the bearer or named bearer the sum quoted, it's value is in the intrinsic value of the traded currency. A Bitcoin has no tangible value and no intrinsic value as it is not backed as in currency.

I'm astounded that people still get tied up in this logic. I suspect confirmation bias by those who regret not getting in early and are out to prove it was never worthwhile.

There are two things you need to know.

1. Can you buy things of value with Bitcoins? - Yes
2. Can you sell things of value and earn Bitcoins? - Yes

Until either 1 or 2 are no longer true, Bitcoins have value.

MikeB4

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#1000766 7-Mar-2014 14:35

hashbrown:
KiwiNZ: Currency in itself has no real tangible value, the intrinsic value is determined by the economic analysis and health of the Nation. Currency is a trading vehicles, Bank notes are a Bill of exchange backed by it's intrinsic value. A cheque is a Promissory Note where the writer promises the bearer or named bearer the sum quoted, it's value is in the intrinsic value of the traded currency. A Bitcoin has no tangible value and no intrinsic value as it is not backed as in currency.

I'm astounded that people still get tied up in this logic. I suspect confirmation bias by those who regret not getting in early and are out to prove it was never worthwhile.

There are two things you need to know.

1. Can you buy things of value with Bitcoins? - Yes
2. Can you sell things of value and earn Bitcoins? - Yes

Until either 1 or 2 are no longer true, Bitcoins have value.

you can do that with Dollar notes but they have no tangible value, they have intrinsic value.

hashbrown

463 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1000769 7-Mar-2014 14:44

KiwiNZ:
hashbrown:
KiwiNZ: Currency in itself has no real tangible value, the intrinsic value is determined by the economic analysis and health of the Nation. Currency is a trading vehicles, Bank notes are a Bill of exchange backed by it's intrinsic value. A cheque is a Promissory Note where the writer promises the bearer or named bearer the sum quoted, it's value is in the intrinsic value of the traded currency. A Bitcoin has no tangible value and no intrinsic value as it is not backed as in currency.

I'm astounded that people still get tied up in this logic. I suspect confirmation bias by those who regret not getting in early and are out to prove it was never worthwhile.

There are two things you need to know.

1. Can you buy things of value with Bitcoins? - Yes
2. Can you sell things of value and earn Bitcoins? - Yes

Until either 1 or 2 are no longer true, Bitcoins have value.

you can do that with Dollar notes but they have no tangible value, they have intrinsic value.

So when you said "A Bitcoin has no tangible value and no intrinsic value" you meant?

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Sideface

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#1000782 7-Mar-2014 14:47

hashbrown:There are two things you need to know.

1. Can you buy things of value with Bitcoins? - Yes
2. Can you sell things of value and earn Bitcoins? - Yes

Until either 1 or 2 are no longer true, Bitcoins have value.

But how stable is their value?
Zimbabwe dollars had value ...

Sideface

MikeB4

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#1000796 7-Mar-2014 14:53

hashbrown:
KiwiNZ:
hashbrown:
KiwiNZ: Currency in itself has no real tangible value, the intrinsic value is determined by the economic analysis and health of the Nation. Currency is a trading vehicles, Bank notes are a Bill of exchange backed by it's intrinsic value. A cheque is a Promissory Note where the writer promises the bearer or named bearer the sum quoted, it's value is in the intrinsic value of the traded currency. A Bitcoin has no tangible value and no intrinsic value as it is not backed as in currency.

I'm astounded that people still get tied up in this logic. I suspect confirmation bias by those who regret not getting in early and are out to prove it was never worthwhile.

There are two things you need to know.

1. Can you buy things of value with Bitcoins? - Yes
2. Can you sell things of value and earn Bitcoins? - Yes

Until either 1 or 2 are no longer true, Bitcoins have value.

you can do that with Dollar notes but they have no tangible value, they have intrinsic value.

So when you said "A Bitcoin has no tangible value and no intrinsic value" you meant?

Exactly that, a bit coin has no tangible value, a Gold Sovereign has a tangible value, that is at the value of the gold. A Dollar note has next to zero tangible value scrap paper is not worth much but has intrinsic value. A Bitcoin has zero tangible value and zero intrinsic value.

Buying and selling goods etc does not give the exchange media value in itself.

hashbrown

463 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1000798 7-Mar-2014 15:05

Sideface:
hashbrown:There are two things you need to know.

1. Can you buy things of value with Bitcoins? - Yes
2. Can you sell things of value and earn Bitcoins? - Yes

Until either 1 or 2 are no longer true, Bitcoins have value.

But how stable is their value?
Zimbabwe dollars had value ...

Cute kid. Meanless argument.

MikeB4

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#1000800 7-Mar-2014 15:08

hashbrown:
Sideface:
hashbrown:There are two things you need to know.

1. Can you buy things of value with Bitcoins? - Yes
2. Can you sell things of value and earn Bitcoins? - Yes

Until either 1 or 2 are no longer true, Bitcoins have value.

But how stable is their value?
Zimbabwe dollars had value ...

Cute kid. Meanless argument.

Actually it's not a meaningless post it actually goes a long way to example what intrinsic value is

hashbrown

463 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1000807 7-Mar-2014 15:22

KiwiNZ: Exactly that, a bit coin has no tangible value, a Gold Sovereign has a tangible value, that is at the value of the gold. A Dollar note has next to zero tangible value scrap paper is not worth much but has intrinsic value. A Bitcoin has zero tangible value and zero intrinsic value.

Buying and selling goods etc does not give the exchange media value in itself.

You can tie yourself up in semantics all you like, but if I can exchange X bitcoins for a jetski then X is exactly 1 jetski's worth of Bitcoin.

Show me a model where that falls over.

hashbrown

463 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1000809 7-Mar-2014 15:23

KiwiNZ: Actually it's not a meaningless post it actually goes a long way to example what intrinsic value is

Without looking at the reasons behind hyper-inflation in Zimbabwe and understanding how Bitcoin has the opposite problem.

MikeB4

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#1000810 7-Mar-2014 15:25

hashbrown:
KiwiNZ: Exactly that, a bit coin has no tangible value, a Gold Sovereign has a tangible value, that is at the value of the gold. A Dollar note has next to zero tangible value scrap paper is not worth much but has intrinsic value. A Bitcoin has zero tangible value and zero intrinsic value.

Buying and selling goods etc does not give the exchange media value in itself.

You can tie yourself up in semantics all you like, but if I can exchange X bitcoins for a jetski then X is exactly 1 jetski's worth of Bitcoin.

Show me a model where that falls over.

errr seen the News lately?

hashbrown

463 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1000817 7-Mar-2014 15:35

KiwiNZ:
hashbrown:
KiwiNZ: Exactly that, a bit coin has no tangible value, a Gold Sovereign has a tangible value, that is at the value of the gold. A Dollar note has next to zero tangible value scrap paper is not worth much but has intrinsic value. A Bitcoin has zero tangible value and zero intrinsic value.

Buying and selling goods etc does not give the exchange media value in itself.

You can tie yourself up in semantics all you like, but if I can exchange X bitcoins for a jetski then X is exactly 1 jetski's worth of Bitcoin.

Show me a model where that falls over.

errr seen the News lately?

Which bit? Stupid people losing bitcoin by treating an online exchange as a bank or the elderly man being chased in a Prius?

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