No government money for fewer cars in Christchurch

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › No government money for fewer cars in Christchurch

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#1766695 18-Apr-2017 13:16

Rikkitic:

As the country fills up, these things will change. You can't live in the 1950s forever.

I don't doubt that some people will continue to need cars, or will have them for road trips, but they will cease to be necessary or desirable for urban living and cities will no longer be designed around them. This is already the case in some parts of Europe.

I really hope that this country doesn't ever "fill up" or become just like another northern european, overpopulated urban sprawl. That's why I live here.

I also hope we never get to the stage where we're only allowed things that are "necessary or desirable", although I know it's the utopian dream of many to curtail personal freedom in exactly that way

Paul1977

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#1766702 18-Apr-2017 13:31

I live in Christchurch, and the public transport is a joke. And now they seem to be trying to make the CBD is unfriendly to cars as possible, while offering no suitable alternative.

Until public transport is fast and convenient then I'll be sticking to my car, and avoiding the CBD. I'd wager the majority of Christchurch residents will do the same.

Rikkitic

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#1766705 18-Apr-2017 13:33

The whole world is filling up. Unless human beings can learn to contain their urge to breed, it will also spill over here. I doubt, though, that anyone will have to disallow your freedom to choose the unnecessary or undesirable. You will willingly make that choice yourself when you realise you are spending half your life stuck in traffic instead of relaxing by the pool.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Paul1977

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#1766708 18-Apr-2017 13:46

Rikkitic:

The whole world is filling up. Unless human beings can learn to contain their urge to breed, it will also spill over here. I doubt, though, that anyone will have to disallow your freedom to choose the unnecessary or undesirable. You will willingly make that choice yourself when you realise you are spending half your life stuck in traffic instead of relaxing by the pool.

I use my car so that I don't have to spend half my life on a bus, or walking between multiple buses on a single trip. Who in their right mind would choose 2 hours of daily commuting via a disgraceful public transport system, when the same can be achieved in 20-30min in a car?

I'm all for reducing overall car usage, but this can only work if a suitable alternative is offered.

MikeB4

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#1766710 18-Apr-2017 13:55

Rikkitic:

shk292:

I think you're dreaming if you think there will be fewer provate cars in NZ within 10-20 years. Kiwis (or at least the ones who don't live in inner-city apartments and wish they were Scandinavian) like to do things like towing boats to the beach, going surfing, taking the family plus dog plus a whole heap of gear on holiday, driving to a mate's farm to go hunting, going to the DIY store to bring back a load of stuff to do up their house etc, etc etc. Plus, a city like ChCh doesn't have (or probably want) the population density to make decent mass transport cost effective. The only thing excluding cars from inner cities will achieve is making those areas solely used by the inner-city hipsters that live there.

As the country fills up, these things will change. You can't live in the 1950s forever.

I don't doubt that some people will continue to need cars, or will have them for road trips, but they will cease to be necessary or desirable for urban living and cities will no longer be designed around them. This is already the case in some parts of Europe.

The UK has a similar land area as NZ and a population of circa 65million and still uses cars and no plans to get rid of them. It will take many many decades (unless an unprecedented migration event occurs) for our population to get close to 65miliion.

MikeB4

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#1766722 18-Apr-2017 14:00

joker97:

MikeB4:

It is not who builds it, it is who pays for it. Kiwis whine about our infrastructure and want roads like Europe or Japan as long as the other guy is paying for it.

Oh believe me Kiwis pay.

THey pay the idiots to build things costing billions that don't work.

They pay the idiots again to rebuild things because the first time didn't work.

They pay in the cost of lost productivity because the infrastructure didn't work.

They pay the consultants to tell them why it doesn't work but have no solution so they get hired again and again (if you tell the govt they're useless do you think you get asked for more consultancy work? no - tell them how awesome they are and how useless everyone else is - get hired again!).

They pay again and again.

I recently drove the Waikato Expressway and the northern gateway and those are very good roads. When the Kapiti Expressway is completed and Transmission Gully is finished those will be very good roads.

If we want better then RUCs need to rise quite bit or more toll roads but that will bring endless whining.

Oblivian

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#1766727 18-Apr-2017 14:18

joker97:

MikeB4:

It is not who builds it, it is who pays for it. Kiwis whine about our infrastructure and want roads like Europe or Japan as long as the other guy is paying for it.

Oh believe me Kiwis pay.

THey pay the idiots to build things costing billions that don't work.

They pay the idiots again to rebuild things because the first time didn't work.

They pay in the cost of lost productivity because the infrastructure didn't work.

They pay the consultants to tell them why it doesn't work but have no solution so they get hired again and again (if you tell the govt they're useless do you think you get asked for more consultancy work? no - tell them how awesome they are and how useless everyone else is - get hired again!).

They pay again and again.

$15K for the latest one regarding 1 street and a few ongoing ideas. _$15k_

The soultion. Slow down. Yep, you can hardly do 50 there at present without losing a wing mirror so most go 30K anyway

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/91076435/safety-audit-recommends-raft-of-changes-for-christchurchs-newlyrebuilt-st-asaph-st

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PaulBags

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#1766739 18-Apr-2017 14:20

Paul1977:
Rikkitic:

The whole world is filling up. Unless human beings can learn to contain their urge to breed, it will also spill over here. I doubt, though, that anyone will have to disallow your freedom to choose the unnecessary or undesirable. You will willingly make that choice yourself when you realise you are spending half your life stuck in traffic instead of relaxing by the pool.

I use my car so that I don't have to spend half my life on a bus, or walking between multiple buses on a single trip. Who in their right mind would choose 2 hours of daily commuting via a disgraceful public transport system, when the same can be achieved in 20-30min in a car?

I'm all for reducing overall car usage, but this can only work if a suitable alternative is offered.

And even if congestion raised that time significantly, 2 hours in a private car is still better than 2 hours on a bus.

Batman

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#1766814 18-Apr-2017 15:31

Oblivian:
joker97:

MikeB4:

It is not who builds it, it is who pays for it. Kiwis whine about our infrastructure and want roads like Europe or Japan as long as the other guy is paying for it.

Oh believe me Kiwis pay.

THey pay the idiots to build things costing billions that don't work.

They pay the idiots again to rebuild things because the first time didn't work.

They pay in the cost of lost productivity because the infrastructure didn't work.

They pay the consultants to tell them why it doesn't work but have no solution so they get hired again and again (if you tell the govt they're useless do you think you get asked for more consultancy work? no - tell them how awesome they are and how useless everyone else is - get hired again!).

They pay again and again.

$15K for the latest one regarding 1 street and a few ongoing ideas. _$15k_

The soultion. Slow down. Yep, you can hardly do 50 there at present without losing a wing mirror so most go 30K anyway

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/91076435/safety-audit-recommends-raft-of-changes-for-christchurchs-newlyrebuilt-st-asaph-st

That's lucky they paid $15k. If they only paid $10k the recommendation would be slow down to 20kph.

Geektastic

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#1766956 18-Apr-2017 19:20

Rikkitic:
shk292:

I think you're dreaming if you think there will be fewer provate cars in NZ within 10-20 years. Kiwis (or at least the ones who don't live in inner-city apartments and wish they were Scandinavian) like to do things like towing boats to the beach, going surfing, taking the family plus dog plus a whole heap of gear on holiday, driving to a mate's farm to go hunting, going to the DIY store to bring back a load of stuff to do up their house etc, etc etc. Plus, a city like ChCh doesn't have (or probably want) the population density to make decent mass transport cost effective. The only thing excluding cars from inner cities will achieve is making those areas solely used by the inner-city hipsters that live there.

As the country fills up, these things will change. You can't live in the 1950s forever.

I don't doubt that some people will continue to need cars, or will have them for road trips, but they will cease to be necessary or desirable for urban living and cities will no longer be designed around them. This is already the case in some parts of Europe.

Eventually people will set up and join schemes where they have access to a pool of cars for an annual fee.

My brother did that when he lived in metropolitan Vancouver. Worked a treat. He had a car when he needed one and not when he didn't.

tdgeek

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#1766986 18-Apr-2017 20:57

shk292:

Rikkitic:

I don’t know if New Zealand urban planners are complete idiots or not so I won’t step into that hornets’ nest. What I think I do know, or at least believe, is that the era of the private motor car is coming to an end. It may hang on for another 10 years or 20, but its days are numbered. Out of necessity the world is moving towards public transport, with solutions like urban light rail and maybe self-driving electric runabouts for individual transport.

I think New Zealand is a victim of its history. With low population density and spread out towns, we have relied on cars to get around. As cities have developed, they have grown around that model. A result is the kind of congestion problems now seen in places like Auckland and the difficulty of finding parking in Wellington.

I do not believe the solution lies in more roads, more parking, and more cars. At best this is short-term and ultimately self-defeating. Kiwis are still in love with their cars and they have to move away from that if they want to have liveable cities in the future. With the right public transport and urban design configurations, you don’t have to have a car to get around and enjoy life. Suburban shopping malls are not the only alternative choice.

Other countries have found good ways to build car-free inner city areas that place the focus back on pedestrians and cyclists. This can be done well. It doesn’t have to result in an impossible mess. Partly it requires a change in attitude away from the obsession with private cars. It is also not hard to accommodate special needs, such as access for emergency vehicles and exemptions for the disabled. These are not obstacles to a different kind of inner city.

I think you're dreaming if you think there will be fewer provate cars in NZ within 10-20 years. Kiwis (or at least the ones who don't live in inner-city apartments and wish they were Scandinavian) like to do things like towing boats to the beach, going surfing, taking the family plus dog plus a whole heap of gear on holiday, driving to a mate's farm to go hunting, going to the DIY store to bring back a load of stuff to do up their house etc, etc etc. Plus, a city like ChCh doesn't have (or probably want) the population density to make decent mass transport cost effective. The only thing excluding cars from inner cities will achieve is making those areas solely used by the inner-city hipsters that live there.

I think she was more looking at urban driving, i.e. commuting and urban shopping, kids to school, etc. Cars are there for what you state, which doesnt really affect city driving.

I have an example actually. Im in ChCh, and rush hour is a PITA. When its school holidays its good. Plenty of traffic but a lot less gridlock. Given that this is JUST school kids, i.e. parents, that is quite a gain from one demographic. If public transport was economical, a good way to send the kids to school or take them, 1 bus = 10 cars. But you would want to incentivise that, as before long, "oh sweet, driving is good now, lets take the car"

Aredwood

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#1767003 18-Apr-2017 21:16

Rikkitic:

I don’t know if New Zealand urban planners are complete idiots or not so I won’t step into that hornets’ nest. What I think I do know, or at least believe, is that the era of the private motor car is coming to an end. It may hang on for another 10 years or 20, but its days are numbered. Out of necessity the world is moving towards public transport, with solutions like urban light rail and maybe self-driving electric runabouts for individual transport.

I think New Zealand is a victim of its history. With low population density and spread out towns, we have relied on cars to get around. As cities have developed, they have grown around that model. A result is the kind of congestion problems now seen in places like Auckland and the difficulty of finding parking in Wellington.

I do not believe the solution lies in more roads, more parking, and more cars. At best this is short-term and ultimately self-defeating. Kiwis are still in love with their cars and they have to move away from that if they want to have liveable cities in the future. With the right public transport and urban design configurations, you don’t have to have a car to get around and enjoy life. Suburban shopping malls are not the only alternative choice.

Other countries have found good ways to build car-free inner city areas that place the focus back on pedestrians and cyclists. This can be done well. It doesn’t have to result in an impossible mess. Partly it requires a change in attitude away from the obsession with private cars. It is also not hard to accommodate special needs, such as access for emergency vehicles and exemptions for the disabled. These are not obstacles to a different kind of inner city.

In the 1960s 100 million trips per year were taken on public transport in Auckland. The year ending march this year - 87 million. Which is an improvement from 57 million trips per year in the 2000s. So yes the urban planners are complete idiots. As they removed the tram network, but didn't replace it with a better network. Built "dormitory suburbs" over large areas of Auckland - Almost entirely residential. Hardly any commercial or industrial. So most of the residents have to travel long distance for their employment. Within those suburbs, no master planning. The roads go all over the place, So very difficult to retrofit public transport. Look at the areas around Sandraham rd, Dominion rd, Mt Eden rd in Auckland for a better planed area. Long mostly straight roads, radiating like spokes from a hub. From central Auckland, Perfect for public transport. No surprises that area is an old part of Auckland.

More mistakes. Selling the old central railway station, which was already on a rail loop. And turning that building and the whole area into mostly leaky apartments. We are now spending billions to build another rail loop not far from the existing one. That area should have instead been high rise commercial. And now high house prices and rents mean alot of people have to move even further away from their employment and education providers. Which makes public transport even more difficult. And the longer trips also mean that it is less likely that people who can't or don't want to use public transport. Would at least be able to buy electric cars, instead of fossil fuelled cars. Land zoning - residential land right next to motorways and heavy rail tracks. Industrial land that is next to the ocean. Yet in areas where it is not deep enough for marine related uses. Rosebank rd Avondale for an example of this.

nickb800

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#1767057 19-Apr-2017 07:52

Paul1977:

I live in Christchurch, and the public transport is a joke. And now they seem to be trying to make the CBD is unfriendly to cars as possible, while offering no suitable alternative.

Until public transport is fast and convenient then I'll be sticking to my car, and avoiding the CBD. I'd wager the majority of Christchurch residents will do the same.

How are they making the CBD unfriendly to cars? Most of the roadworks under the accessible city project are effectively fixing earthquake/rebuild damaged roads, and keeping the same number of motor vehicle lanes. The council has spent the best part of $100m rebuilding the Lichfield St carpark and subsidising The Crossing carpark.

Here's a novel thought - *everyone* is a pedestrian at some point in their journey - you can't drive your car to your desk at work, to a table at a restaurant, or the checkout counter in a shop. Making the city more pleasant for pedestrians is making it more pleasant for everyone. Who enjoyed walking down the side of the one-way streets pre-quake with several lanes of traffic zooming past at 50kmh?

What is changing is the provision of on-street parking, which is being reduced to provide for the safety and convenience of other transport modes. The point isn't to make everyone bike/walk/bus, just a few people that can conveniently do so, therefore reducing congestion for everyone - including single occupant motor vehicles.

Let's keep it in perspective. It is still possible to get free on-street all-day parking within 10mins walk of the core CBD. Heck, I drove to work towing a trailer and parked on street for free on a weekday. If a 10min walk from a free carpark is too much, then there are ample choices of $5 per day workday parking, which for a city of our size is ridiculously cheap. Wellington is more like $15+, and Auckland $20+

bmt

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#1767093 19-Apr-2017 09:16

Agree with what Rikkitic is saying here. The future is not more cars, not ever widening motorways, not stacks and stacks of parking buildings.

The new Waterview connection motorway will be opening in Auckland very soon. Its purpose is to link up an alternative route to SH1 to get around Auckland, as well as removing traffic from more suburban roads. From day 1 it will be packed. It will not ease congestion at all. The concept to understand here is - you build a new road to add capacity, but in no time it has filled up and you are left with the same congestion.

When you understand this, you see that just building more roads, building more parking buildings and catering for cars above all else is not the answer. There's only so many roads and therefore on street parks you can cram into Christchurch CBD. Parking buildings cater for x number of cars, but they are not an efficient use of space.

There are a lot of dinosaurs in here who would do well to open their eyes to the bigger picture.

MikeB4

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#1767103 19-Apr-2017 09:22

We are an aging population and yes that includes everyone here. Ever tried using public transport using walking sticks, crutches, walking frame, wheelchair, scooter? They are wholly unsuitable due to their design, routes and simply useless drivers.

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