Dairy robberies: guns, cigarette taxes, changing practices, ...

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Dairy robberies: guns, cigarette taxes, changing practices, ...

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MikeAqua

7773 posts

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#1958538 15-Feb-2018 11:36

Geektastic:

However, it seems to me that if an adult wishes to partake of something in the privacy of their own home, they should be free so to do.

We do not, for example, apply an additional tax to rugby players who may need the ACC more than non-rugby players. We do not try and ban it because there is an increased injury risk. We do not charge drunks for the free rides home they get on Police 10-7 or for the additional healthcare and related injury costs that might arise out of their drinking.

Generally I agree with the bold bit. Although passive smoking by kids is claims to have a high health cost.

Rugby: results in some injuries but keeps people fit - stopping people from playing rugby, may simply increase the chronic disease burden. Ditto other sports.

Alcohol: is heavily taxed, so the government has a compensating revenue source. I have no objection to this.

I note that alcohol, when used in lawful manner, does not harm bystanders. Generally, someone has to drink alcohol and break the law (assault, drunk driving, parental neglect etc) to cause harm to others.

The same can not be said of smoking tobacco. Although it could be said of chewing tobacco, snuff etc.

Mike

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1958585 15-Feb-2018 12:39

MikeAqua:

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

If a person standing next to me at a bus stop is smoking I am exposed to second hand smoke (no known safe level of exposure).

That linear no-threshold model also applies to the radon seeping in to your home from the ground. I'd put the risk from passive smoking outdoors (as opposed to being stuck in a smoky bar or in a car with a chain smoker and the windows closed) as probably lower than the low risk from radon (in NZ homes anyway) while sitting inside watching TV.

Any radon creeping into my house is a naturally occurring and probably unavoidable. By contrast smoking is not.

But again there are WHO reference levels for radon exposure. None for cigarette smoke.

I mentioned that as in the USA (where radon is an issue - unlike in NZ where it isn't considered to be) and number of cigarettes consumed per capita more than double that of NZ, the estimated total lung cancer deaths from second-hand smoking is estimated at 7,000 per annum, for radon the estimate is three times higher - 21,000. Radon is of course much simpler to measure, as you're just looking for alpha particle count from decay of radon daughters, then looking for lung cancer. Smoke has many compounds, and there are many diverse health effects, but in any case it should be fully expected that most of those would be the result of people "passively" smoking indoors and in cars etc, not being exposed to a whiff outdoors.

In my opinion, treat smokers at a bus stop in the same way you'd treat someone who stinks for some other reason - not as a threat to your health. Move away if possible. Giving them a lecture is at your peril.

Geektastic

17942 posts

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#1958593 15-Feb-2018 12:43

MikeAqua:

Geektastic:

However, it seems to me that if an adult wishes to partake of something in the privacy of their own home, they should be free so to do.

We do not, for example, apply an additional tax to rugby players who may need the ACC more than non-rugby players. We do not try and ban it because there is an increased injury risk. We do not charge drunks for the free rides home they get on Police 10-7 or for the additional healthcare and related injury costs that might arise out of their drinking.

Generally I agree with the bold bit. Although passive smoking by kids is claims to have a high health cost.

Rugby: results in some injuries but keeps people fit - stopping people from playing rugby, may simply increase the chronic disease burden. Ditto other sports.

Alcohol: is heavily taxed, so the government has a compensating revenue source. I have no objection to this.

I note that alcohol, when used in lawful manner, does not harm bystanders. Generally, someone has to drink alcohol and break the law (assault, drunk driving, parental neglect etc) to cause harm to others.

The same can not be said of smoking tobacco. Although it could be said of chewing tobacco, snuff etc.

I'll agree that alcohol itself does not harm bystanders in the same way that a person smoking on their porch alone does not either. Smoking is even more heavily taxed to provide compensating revenue, of course.

However, the social cost of alcohol is vast. Probably much greater than tobacco use.

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#1958620 15-Feb-2018 14:30

Fred99:

In my opinion, treat smokers at a bus stop in the same way you'd treat someone who stinks for some other reason - not as a threat to your health. Move away if possible. Giving them a lecture is at your peril.

I agree there probably isn't a health risk from passive smoking outside, but it is actually an unknown.

Generally only an issue on rainy days when some smokers choose to smoke inside the bus shelters, and avoidance means standing in the rain. That's rather in-considerate and also illegal (by-laws). I've never been afraid of pointing this out (politely). I've actually never had much negative reaction to that.

I agree there is no point in lecturing a smoker (or any addict). I just wish to avoid their adverse effects.

On balance its probably favourable that smokers take the bus system. Research on smoking and car accidents makes interesting reading (example). A risk of crashes for smokers up to 150% higher that non-smoker has been reported. This has been hypothesised as being due to one or more of distraction, partial asphyxiation (carbon monoxide ) or differences in behaviour between smoker and non-smokers.

Mike

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18657 posts

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#1958654 15-Feb-2018 16:00

Geektastic:

Whilst I am of course also well aware of the arguments against it, I do feel the need to poke my head above the parapet and say that adults should be free to make choices. By all means, tax those choices to reflect a greater contribution to the possible healthcare that those choices might result in. By all means prevent those choices from impacting others where feasible. However, it seems to me that if an adult wishes to partake of something in the privacy of their own home, they should be free so to do.

We do not, for example, apply an additional tax to rugby players who may need the ACC more than non-rugby players. We do not try and ban it because there is an increased injury risk. We do not charge drunks for the free rides home they get on Police 10-7 or for the additional healthcare and related injury costs that might arise out of their drinking. Just to name a couple of instances where there is a bit of hypocrisy.

Hard day, home at last, time to put the feet up and have a good blow of some quality Jamaican grass. Ah, that's the thing. Oh! I wonder what that knock at the door is...

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#1958655 15-Feb-2018 16:04

Geektastic:

However, the social cost of alcohol is vast. Probably much greater than tobacco use.

Especially since it is heavily promoted through advertising, sponsorship, and cultural encouragement.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18657 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#1958656 15-Feb-2018 16:07

MikeAqua:

On balance its probably favourable that smokers take the bus system. Research on smoking and car accidents makes interesting reading (example). A risk of crashes for smokers up to 150% higher that non-smoker has been reported. This has been hypothesised as being due to one or more of distraction, partial asphyxiation (carbon monoxide ) or differences in behaviour between smoker and non-smokers.

Dropping a lit cigarette between your legs is generally considered a major driver distraction. Especially if the safety harness ('seat belt') prevents you from reaching it.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1958801 15-Feb-2018 21:30

Rikkitic:

MikeAqua:

On balance its probably favourable that smokers take the bus system. Research on smoking and car accidents makes interesting reading (example). A risk of crashes for smokers up to 150% higher that non-smoker has been reported. This has been hypothesised as being due to one or more of distraction, partial asphyxiation (carbon monoxide ) or differences in behaviour between smoker and non-smokers.

Dropping a lit cigarette between your legs is generally considered a major driver distraction. Especially if the safety harness ('seat belt') prevents you from reaching it.

And the difference between dropping a lit cigarette and the inside of a hot meat pie between your legs is that one might eventually kill you...

Oh wait...

Kyanar

4089 posts

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#1960089 18-Feb-2018 23:41

kobiak:

- automate cigarette sale. hard/metal box like ATM which takes video of purchaser, ID scan required and finger print scanner to authorise the purchase (like at most airports). ID has to match finger print scan.

Your plan fails on the face because of several things.

1. The government doesn't issue any form of ID which has fingerprint biometrics on it.

2. Even if the government did, not every other government issues forms of ID with fingerprint biometrics on it. How does a visiting Australian, for example, buy tobacco?

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