More dodgy Bitcoin goings on....

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › More dodgy Bitcoin goings on....

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332 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1000983 7-Mar-2014 19:53

Sideface:

hashbrown: Cute kid. ...

Cute!?!? That's the notorious criminal Baby-face Ngbewe and he's just robbed another bank! ;-)

KiwiNZ: Currency in itself has no real tangible value, the intrinsic value is determined by the economic analysis and health of the Nation.

Yes and no. The bills and more especially the coins do have a value of their own - many countries (America, as usual, being one of the exceptions!) have stopped making the smaller denominations partly because the coins themselves were worth more than it's actual currency value.

DravidDavid: Bitcoin is no different to the worthless paper money we trade at the moment. Bitcoin is worth something because people give it value, just like a fifty dollar note.

I didn't say Bitcoin was worthless ... but it is pointless and completely unneeded.

greenbone: bit CON, thats great! so clever and definitely original. coin ... con ... genius.

Since you liked that one so much ;-) here's three more for you ...
- Kim DotCON
- TeleCON NZ
- eCONomics

Sideface

9350 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1000989 7-Mar-2014 20:10

Zimbabwe II

Sideface

Dairyxox

1594 posts

Uber Geek

#1001007 7-Mar-2014 21:11

In fact bit coin DOES have intrinsic value. Its value is cryptography. Its value is scarcity, it (a block) is difficult to find, it takes many repeated IC's (integrated circuits) a long time to calculate. There is value in its decentralised, trusted ledger. IF the ledger has no value, then neither does the ledger of a bank, insurance firm, or accountant. In fact the block chain is more trustworthy than any competing ledger.

If you think it can be computed quickly and easily with no value, than I propose you show us all how, or shut up.

The people who are talking down bit coin, do they have any experience with it? do they understand how it works? What qualifies your position?

If you were smart you would have invested at $15 a bitcoin, and be very happy now, at $700 or $1,400 per bit coin.

This is the opposite to a banana republic whose fiat currency is DEVALUING due to OVERSUPPLY.

turnin

509 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1001052 7-Mar-2014 22:34

KiwiNZ:
turnin: yup, thats about 1% of their debt

us debt is $ 17,425,000,000,000 ( 50K per person)
1 tonne of gold at 1500 $US is worth 48,200,000
4500 tones of gold is worth $216,900,000,000
so 99% of its backing is in good old non tangible faith.

add in all the other facets of worth

Bitcoin is backed by ???????????

I didn't once suggest that bitcoin was backed by gold, but your argument is that bitcoin has no value whereas the dollar does because the fed 'back it' . don't know about you but back in my day five-eighths was f*&^ all. 1% was even less. The other facets of worth are primarily based on promises and hope which somehow ignores the fact we are duplicating the currency out of existence. Comparing the two does not show much contrast between your valuation of bitcoins value and mine of fiat except that fiat will continue to devalue and bitcoin by nature will value. Just saying :)

nova

250 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

#1001062 7-Mar-2014 23:31

Dairyxox: In fact bit coin DOES have intrinsic value. Its value is cryptography. Its value is scarcity, it (a block) is difficult to find, it takes many repeated IC's (integrated circuits) a long time to calculate. There is value in its decentralised, trusted ledger. IF the ledger has no value, then neither does the ledger of a bank, insurance firm, or accountant. In fact the block chain is more trustworthy than any competing ledger.

If you think it can be computed quickly and easily with no value, than I propose you show us all how, or shut up.

The people who are talking down bit coin, do they have any experience with it? do they understand how it works? What qualifies your position?

If you were smart you would have invested at $15 a bitcoin, and be very happy now, at $700 or $1,400 per bit coin.

This is the opposite to a banana republic whose fiat currency is DEVALUING due to OVERSUPPLY.

Bitcoin is scarce only within it's own context. There is nothing to stop someone from creating their own variant of it, and there are hundreds of examples of this, for example PrimeCoin, LiteCoin etc

Bitcoin derives its cryptographic value due to the high cost of doing a transaction. The hashcash scheme it uses is interesting, but it would require an immense amount of computing power if you were to try to put all the transactions that Visa currently handle through it. Add to that the time it takes to add a transaction to the block chain (roughly ten minutes), and arguably it is a poor mechanism for real time payments (for example at the supermarket).

The fact that bitcoin is restricted to 21 million bitcoins is also a negative in my view. You need to have the ability to increase the money supply as the population of users increase, otherwise you will get deflation. This is arguably worse than inflation, and at any rate some form of price stability is essential for a true currency.

I agree that bitcoin is similar to fiat currencies, in that the value is controlled by the users of the currency, and they are both essentially backed by the users. However most fiat currencies have a significant advantage, in that their users form a cohesive democractic society, with the ability to make laws and regulate the currency to ensure stability.

AidanS

458 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1001076 8-Mar-2014 00:00

The fact that bitcoin is restricted to 21 million bitcoins is also a negative in my view.

This "cap being an issue" is almost void somewhat, as bitcoin(s) have so many decimal places. Unlike the standard international currency system of only two decimal places bitcoin has 8. Meaning (at least for quite a while) bitcoins will survive strongly as people simply move down the ranks. "0.1 BTC becomes the new "1.0 BTC".

Obviously there will come a time when we get to the "0.00000001 BTC", but that's a very long time away, especially as not all bitcoins have been discovered yet.

-A.

resurrect

80 posts

Master Geek

#1002007 10-Mar-2014 09:57

I wonder when the US government will start mining bit-coins with the D-wave 2???? since it's jointly owned by NASA, Google and the USRA, but well it's held in a NASA lab.

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hashbrown

463 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1002010 10-Mar-2014 10:09

resurrect: I wonder when the US government will start mining bit-coins with the D-wave 2???? since it's jointly owned by NASA, Google and the USRA, but well it's held in a NASA lab.

Why bother mining.

thestokes

39 posts

Geek

#1002016 10-Mar-2014 10:28

Just to add to this conversation from a somewhat bias view. All major commodities markets and all commodities on them are priced in a fiat currency (being the USD). So you can link actual value to that currency in the form of commodities such as gold, oil, milk powder, corn, cattle, wood, sugar etc. any major trading in these commodities needs to be done in USD and this is not changing anytime soon.

Locking a currency in to an intrinsic value reminds me of early 20th century economic thinking which the world has by in large moved away from.

I like the idea of a crypto currency but don’t believe that Bitcoin will be the currency accepted by the main stream. A competitor will (or already has) emerged that will take care of some of the fundamental (perceived) trust issues that Bitcoin has.

gundar

488 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

#1002017 10-Mar-2014 10:37

Sideface: Zimbabwe II

You can buy this currency here: http://collectorssupplies.co.nz/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=1221&=SID

I got myself a few to remind myself that money is ultimately worthless. The Zim dollar is constantly being reinvented and revalued becasue there is nothing left to buy.

Geektastic

17942 posts

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#1002018 10-Mar-2014 10:41

gundar:
Sideface: Zimbabwe II

You can buy this currency here: http://collectorssupplies.co.nz/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=1221&=SID

I got myself a few to remind myself that money is ultimately worthless. The Zim dollar is constantly being reinvented and revalued becasue there is nothing left to buy.

My mother used to live in Rhodesia and often recalls just how much better off it was pre-independece. Living proof that one ought to be careful what one wishes for..!

gundar

488 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

#1002022 10-Mar-2014 10:51

Geektastic:
gundar:

You can buy this currency here: http://collectorssupplies.co.nz/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=1221&=SID

I got myself a few to remind myself that money is ultimately worthless. The Zim dollar is constantly being reinvented and revalued becasue there is nothing left to buy.

My mother used to live in Rhodesia and often recalls just how much better off it was pre-independece. Living proof that one ought to be careful what one wishes for..!

That brings me to a thought that aligns with the topic, somewhat (I know it's called off-topic for a reason).

Given the trouble that some parts of Europe are having keeping up the value of the Euro, would a global economy made of BitCoins not create the same troubles - assuming that BTC becomes dominant. For example, the cost of bread in one country in BTC would be different in BTC to another part of the world, or even the same country? Would one country end up being the primary producer of bread?

thestokes

39 posts

Geek

#1002027 10-Mar-2014 10:59

gundar:
Geektastic:
gundar:

You can buy this currency here: http://collectorssupplies.co.nz/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=1221&=SID

I got myself a few to remind myself that money is ultimately worthless. The Zim dollar is constantly being reinvented and revalued becasue there is nothing left to buy.

My mother used to live in Rhodesia and often recalls just how much better off it was pre-independece. Living proof that one ought to be careful what one wishes for..!

That brings me to a thought that aligns with the topic, somewhat (I know it's called off-topic for a reason).

Given the trouble that some parts of Europe are having keeping up the value of the Euro, would a global economy made of BitCoins not create the same troubles - assuming that BTC becomes dominant. For example, the cost of bread in one country in BTC would be different in BTC to another part of the world, or even the same country? Would one country end up being the primary producer of bread?

A global currency (or a pan European currency) has the major issue of not being able to as effectively pull the economic levers in your own country or region for your specific economic conditions. Hence some of the problems in Europe; although austerity has a lot more of the blame…

redream

1 post

Wannabe Geek

#1005237 13-Mar-2014 22:14

nova:
The hashcash scheme it uses is interesting, but it would require an immense amount of computing power if you were to try to put all the transactions that Visa currently handle through it. Add to that the time it takes to add a transaction to the block chain (roughly ten minutes), and arguably it is a poor mechanism for real time payments (for example at the supermarket).

The computing power required for bitcoin doesn't increase significantly as the volume of transactions increases. As long as the majority of computing power in the network is 'honest' the integrity of the network is ensured regardless of the amount of computing power.

The blockchain (at the moment) is limited to 7 transactions/sec, but this limit can and will be increased as necessary. See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability.

A transaction does not have to be added to the blockchain for a merchant to accept the transaction. The merchant can be fairly certain that the transaction will be confirmed as long as it is propagated sufficiently, this only takes about 3 seconds. The chances of a double spend occurring are low enough that merchants can safely accept transactions under $1,000 with 0 confirmations.

greenbone

176 posts

Master Geek

#1005552 14-Mar-2014 13:13

KiwiNZ:
greenbone: wow what? i thought this forum was a little more informed ...

take 2 minutes and read this: https://medium.com/p/73b4257ac833

it is

you were right. it just took a while for the informed to arrive

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