No HDTV for Freeview Satellite customers

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#86267 11-Sep-2007 13:51

For a lot of people the quality of the Widescreen TV3 and C4 is so high compared with their old signal that they actually think they have HD.

Given the currently allocated capacity on Optus D1 I don't expect to see any HD DVB-S2 services until an additional bird is positioned anyway.

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

Zimsar10

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#86268 11-Sep-2007 13:56

openmedia: For a lot of people the quality of the Widescreen TV3 and C4 is so high compared with their old signal that they actually think they have HD.

Given the currently allocated capacity on Optus D1 I don't expect to see any HD DVB-S2 services until an additional bird is positioned anyway.

Whilst the quality of all channels via Digital Satellite signal is a very significant improvement over a analogue SD signal, it is far from being close to an HD signal, this is clearly evident when viewing any BluRay or HD DVD setup in a electronics store.

rscole86

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#86273 11-Sep-2007 14:07

For most people this will not be a problem, as they are using a dish which was already on their roof.

Seeing as the current STBs do not support HD, then they would have to upgrade anyway, or pay for a DVB-T STB, which would be of similar cost.

I understand that there are people like yourself who have put a bit of money into setting yourself up with a dish and STB, however comparing that to the cost of having SKY for one year you have probably saved yourself a bit of money.

And as has already been pointed out, there are always people who loose out if they are one of the first to take up new technology, people will always get burnt.

allstarnz

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#86274 11-Sep-2007 14:08

i'm just waiting for Sky to get off their a$$ and broadcast in HD. Surely rugby would be the first place to try this? Mind you, they aren't even broadcasting in widescreen for all that much either. My suspicion is that they are holding out for partly commerical reasons. ie for HD to start, so they can still offer a point of difference for the Rugby Channel.

It shouldn't be too hard to broadcast in widescreen, they already film most sport in WS (eg the NRL and rugby), and most stuff out of Europe and Aus is received in widescreen.

As for HD, I hope DVB-T HD will be out as early as next March, but i'm sceptical.

cyril7

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#86275 11-Sep-2007 14:18

D1 has 8 tranponders on the NZbeam in Hpol, thats 16muxs, currently Sky are only using 9muxs, FreeView 2muxs, although sky have carriers on one other muxs (presumably a test) that has only recently turned up.

So thats 5muxs remaining (counting Skys test one), that enough for 40 more Sky bit rate SD channels, or roughly 15 Mpeg4 DVB-S2 HD channels assuming 12-15Mb/s per HD channel.

Cyril

Zimsar10

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#86276 11-Sep-2007 14:19

rscole86: For most people this will not be a problem, as they are using a dish which was already on their roof.

Seeing as the current STBs do not support HD, then they would have to upgrade anyway, or pay for a DVB-T STB, which would be of similar cost.

I understand that there are people like yourself who have put a bit of money into setting yourself up with a dish and STB, however comparing that to the cost of having SKY for one year you have probably saved yourself a bit of money.

And as has already been pointed out, there are always people who loose out if they are one of the first to take up new technology, people will always get burnt.

I'm still hoping that logic will preveil & HDTV will be offered to people who have satellite dishes installed (in my case a brand new one), especially since Satellite can offer HDTV with the appropriate STB to 100% of New Zealand, whereas UHF can only manage a poor 75%.

Zimsar10

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#86277 11-Sep-2007 14:24

cyril7: D1 has 8 tranponders on the NZbeam in Hpol, thats 16muxs, currently Sky are only using 9muxs, FreeView 2muxs, although sky have carriers on one other muxs (presumably a test) that has only recently turned up.

So thats 5muxs remaining (counting Skys test one), that enough for 40 more Sky bit rate SD channels, or roughly 15 Mpeg4 DVB-S2 HD channels assuming 12-15Mb/s per HD channel.

Cyril

Slightly OT if I may, when I got my Zinwell STB & Satellite dish hooked up, it automatically downloaded a software update for the box "via air" which was quite cool I thought & new to me. So, do you have any idea what sort of bandwidth the current Freeview signal can be transmitted at, I would be interested to know what sort of speed my setup can handle.

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DS9

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#86280 11-Sep-2007 14:41

Talking about Transponders, 8 are on the NZ Beam 5 currently leased by Sky with first option for 2 remaining spares, as Freeview has the 8th, FreeView wants 18 SD channels and that is 3 more than is recommended for Mpeg 2. at present using Mpeg4 there is enough room for 2 HD channels, using 8PSK that can be increased to 3 per transponder. this is the standard used in N.America, where each Satellite tends to have upto 80 transponders each.

check here for the latest Dish Net. satellite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anik_%28satellite%29
also http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/starchoicef2.html

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lchiu7

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#86282 11-Sep-2007 14:49

This is what I would love to see

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6458164.html

100 HD satellite channels from one bird.

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

lchiu7

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#86283 11-Sep-2007 14:51

ZIMsar10:
openmedia: For a lot of people the quality of the Widescreen TV3 and C4 is so high compared with their old signal that they actually think they have HD.

Given the currently allocated capacity on Optus D1 I don't expect to see any HD DVB-S2 services until an additional bird is positioned anyway.

Whilst the quality of all channels via Digital Satellite signal is a very significant improvement over a analogue SD signal, it is far from being close to an HD signal, this is clearly evident when viewing any BluRay or HD DVD setup in a electronics store.

IMHO while good (especially compared with OTA or TCL cable) Freeview doesn't even compare with DVD. And there is no comparison with HD at all. But then again since most of the population haven't see HD or know what it is, the interference free and for TV3 widescreen broadcasts on a good widescreen set is not so bad

Larry

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

Zimsar10

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#86284 11-Sep-2007 15:00

lchiu7:
ZIMsar10:
openmedia: For a lot of people the quality of the Widescreen TV3 and C4 is so high compared with their old signal that they actually think they have HD.

Given the currently allocated capacity on Optus D1 I don't expect to see any HD DVB-S2 services until an additional bird is positioned anyway.

Whilst the quality of all channels via Digital Satellite signal is a very significant improvement over a analogue SD signal, it is far from being close to an HD signal, this is clearly evident when viewing any BluRay or HD DVD setup in a electronics store.

IMHO while good (especially compared with OTA or TCL cable) Freeview doesn't even compare with DVD. And there is no comparison with HD at all. But then again since most of the population haven't see HD or know what it is, the interference free and for TV3 widescreen broadcasts on a good widescreen set is not so bad

Larry

I agree, Satellite SD Digital TV is not as good as DVD, but it's certainly miles ahead of SD terrestrial.

allstarnz

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#86288 11-Sep-2007 15:41

ZIMsar10:
cyril7: D1 has 8 tranponders on the NZbeam in Hpol, thats 16muxs, currently Sky are only using 9muxs, FreeView 2muxs, although sky have carriers on one other muxs (presumably a test) that has only recently turned up.

So thats 5muxs remaining (counting Skys test one), that enough for 40 more Sky bit rate SD channels, or roughly 15 Mpeg4 DVB-S2 HD channels assuming 12-15Mb/s per HD channel.

Cyril

Slightly OT if I may, when I got my Zinwell STB & Satellite dish hooked up, it automatically downloaded a software update for the box "via air" which was quite cool I thought & new to me. So, do you have any idea what sort of bandwidth the current Freeview signal can be transmitted at, I would be interested to know what sort of speed my setup can handle.

Each program tends to vary a bit. To give you an idea. Something like the World Cup coverage on TV3 averages a tad over 6Mb/s. Standard TV programming on TVNZ is about 3-4 Mb/s a second. For something like the V8 Supercars on TVNZ Sport Extra, the out of car shots were getting up to about 8 Mb/s.

The thing too is what none of the senders have really started playing about with sub-channels in New Zealand yet. I'd be interested to know what the maximum bitrate per channel is on SD Freeview over satellite.

openmedia

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#86295 11-Sep-2007 16:27

lchiu7:
sbiddle: ..

The reasons for no HD are pretty straight forward, the cost of DVB-S2 STB's is still high and due to the higher bandwidth requirements and the cost of bandwidth it's also not as economical as regular SD channels. Freeview have indicated that it's likely we could possibly see DVB-S2 broadcasts but that it's un likely for several years at least. HD satellite broadcasts are not that common overseas, HD over terrestrial and cable is.

..

If you exclude the US that is probably right but in the US HD over satellite has huge penetration with both Dish Network and DirectTV.

I also wonder why HD is not over satellite since that would provide potentially 100% coverage unless there is some mistaken notion that those who purchased certified fSTB's might feel a bit aggrieved to find that the boxes won't work with HD over satellite (despite all the communications to that effect). If however they offer HD over DVB-T they can at least say, well this is a different service and you need a different box!

Also on the bandwidth issue, no idea how much bandwidth is available on D1 for HD transmissions but I suspect plenty. The unanswered question (Cyril?) is how much bandwidth is available on the terrestrial networks in NZ for the re-transmission of HD signals across the country to get to the local UHF transmitters and repeaters?

Larry

None of the existing STBs have ever been pushed as being HD ready. They are SD only. Some consumers have managed to confuse themselved into thinking they are HD.

As to OptusD1, all capacity was already allocated at launch. Sky might have a transponder they can use for HD and DVB-S2, but there is no spare slots for freeview to buy.

Based on the UK model a HD channel is between 12-15 MBit in H264. The current SD channels are between 4-6 Mbit on freeview in MPEG2.

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

ZollyMonsta

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#86341 11-Sep-2007 21:02

The Canwest channels are pretty steady at around 9mbps, last time I checked. TVNZ is around 8mbps.
You can expect these rates to drop as more channels are added to the 'pool' and statmuxing (Statistical Multiplexing) kicks in.
Currently there is hardly any (note: none) statmuxing going on as there's not enough channels to warrant it.
Statmuxing takes into account the entire stream and what channel needs what bandwidth. If a channel does not have much going on, then it will be given a lower bitrate and the spare bandwidth allocated to another channel which requires it. I can't remember the stream bandwidth offhand for Satellite, but for Cable TV it's around 36mbps per stream. I believe Satellite is lower. I really must refresh my memory :)

Cheers,
ZollyMonsta

richms

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#86343 11-Sep-2007 21:13

Sat doesnt cover 100% - you need a dish and cabling in the house to a TV to get it, whereas the UHF will typically be ok with an indoor antenna in loads of peoples houses. This is a huge advantage to the dvb-t service that makes it much more viable to most city dwellers, plus I would say a lot more houses have UHF external antennas as a result of the old sky packages then have unused dishes on them.

Richard rich.ms

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