Receiver, separates questions

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#2084233 5-Sep-2018 10:47

Batman: That sub in that room ain't gonna add or subtract from clarity! For sub clarity OP needs acoustic treatment to room with some renovations not to mention a sub upgrade or two. Stick it in the corner.

I call bollox on this!

OP can always try it out - if there’s even space there - and see what he thinks.

Yep, why not try a range of locations for the sub? If you’ve got the cable it’s not like it’ll cost you anything but time. As I mentioned, our sub sits right next to the viewing couch, and that works fine (and better than in the corner!), so sure try it out on the back wall...

tripper1000

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#2084258 5-Sep-2018 11:35

1101: dont believe the BS about lacking power.
As noted above, doubling the power only gives 3db. Thats bugger all.
And then speakers will loose efficeincy at higher power anyway, so thats even less gain from higher power.
More power never means better quality.

Even a good 10W amp is more than enough for that room.
Hell, a 50W amp is loud enough for playing live gigs in a rock band. My old 25W guitar amp was loud enough to hurt your ears.

While it is true that power and distortion spec's are not necessarily directly proportional, they often are, particularly as you get to the power limit's. As a general rule of thumb an amp working near its max power output produces a more distortion than an amp working comfortably within its power range. So for equal power output/volume level a high powered amp will usually have better clarity than a low powered amp. There are exceptions of course when you put a very good quality low power amp against a very poor quality high power amp.

Guitar amps are a poor parallel because they are seldom designed for clarity/fidelity and their addition of distortion is often a positive selling point. They are also usually narrower frequency range than required for a stereo - an example is that bass guitar amps & speakers are different to regular guitar amp. A stereo is expected to faithfully reproduce both where as a guitar amp with it's narrower frequency range, is not.

Guitar amps in rock band live gig's (even in a moderated size venue) are usually mic'd and feed into a P.A. that is running power in the Kilowatt range. They do this to preserve the characteristic (ie distortion) of the guitar and amp combo, which would be lost if you ran the guitar directly into the PA and fold-back system.

Batman

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#2084262 5-Sep-2018 11:50

sorry I didn't appreciate how narrow the room was. thought it was an open hall with a walkway on the left. (need to go to specsavers).

in that case lack of clarity can be explained by reflection of sound from everywhere.

does the unit have an auto equalizing feature?

secondly highly recommend only playing "direct" 2 channel sound for music.

nitro

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#2084282 5-Sep-2018 12:38

been fiddling with my own setup recently as well and trying to get the best without spending any dime... i hear you!

i wouldn't be rushing to replace any of your current gear without trying the following:

move the sub to the floor
move the centre forward so that its drivers go past the cabinet (massive difference in dialog quality in my experience)
run audyssey
see if there's an improvement, if happy stop here

if not happy, i'd try different sub positions as a booming bass gives the impression of lack of clarity.

i have a fair bit of appreciation of audyssey, as i have seen it work much better than an old version of mcacc (i'm sure that has improved as well). note, however, that i find it necessary to adjust the level for the sub after audyssey has run its course in my living room (don't have a dedicated room).

as has been mentioned, you should use a good source to judge performance, e.g. blu-ray/cd rather than mkv/mp3... although i would expect one with your setup to be well aware of that. DD+ from netflix is not bad, but i won't use that for testing due to other variables it introduces.

after all that, i'm not really sure of what you mean by clarity? and what material you feel it;s lacking - movies? music?

nitro

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#2084284 5-Sep-2018 12:44

Batman:

secondly highly recommend only playing "direct" 2 channel sound for music.

he can probably get away with that, seeing how he has floorstanders... those with bookshelf type fronts might be inclined to use "stereo" instead to make use of the sub.

agent86

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#2084295 5-Sep-2018 13:08

You could also look at speaker toe-in?
The site below explains how it can affect the sound.
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/speaker-off-axis-understanding-the-effect-of-speaker-toe-in/
The coffee table in front of the right speaker might also be affecting your setup, if possible you could try temporarily removing it from the room and see how if it affects the sound.
Other than your gear, one of the other major factors is the room and how the sound is reflected and absorbed.
I remember reading in the manual for my front floor speakers it recommended having around 1m distance from the walls.
I know that's impossible in a narrow room, but you could try move your speakers so they're the same distance from surrounding walls (looks like the right one is closer than the left, I assume you've centred everything in relation to your couch?).

33coupe

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#2084306 5-Sep-2018 13:25

Thanks everyone, some really good knowledge and suggestions.

The room is a really odd shape and a real pita for my setup & tv (so many windows causing reflection). I can take some more pics to give a better idea. I'm in a rental so I cant change the walls etc, but I will move my setup. The coffee table is pretty useful, and there doesn't seem to be anywhere else for it, but can see why it would be an issue.

Just to confirm that I was mostly looking for better detail / clarity with music, I'm ok with movies (although any change may be beneficial as well).

My hard drive mostly consists of FLAC files, but am not sure what quality Spotify premium offers?

I have been using 'stereo' mode for music, but I will try 'direct' or 'pure' (I use this for my vinyl).

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

jonathan18

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#2084328 5-Sep-2018 13:47

33coupe:

I have been using 'stereo' mode for music, but I will try 'direct' or 'pure' (I use this for my vinyl).

I'm pretty sure a 'direct' mode may bypass the sub, so only use the left and right speakers, whereas 'stereo' will often still include the sub. Depending on the bass response of your LRs in that space, this may or may not be a good thing (and depending on your sound preference and music tastes).

In my case, I've got decent-sized floor-standers, but the bass response drops off a bit too steeply for my taste - as such, I'm more likely to listen to music in stereo rather than direct mode.

Once you've got that sub in an optimal location you may be able to have a better idea of which you prefer...

Dunnersfella

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#2084526 5-Sep-2018 20:01

The subwoofer is easily the biggest detractor... if you're listening to records!

Basically, it will thump and thump, causing the needle to bounce in the groove. It may not jump out of the groove (it might, but I doubt it) but that will certainly detract from the clarity of your system.

A slimline sub positioned on a different plane from the turntable (ie on the floor) will be the goodness. A few manufacturers make slimline subs and to be fair, they'll most likely out perform the Wharfedale.

agent86

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#2084536 5-Sep-2018 20:18

Dunnersfella:
The subwoofer is easily the biggest detractor... if you're listening to records!

Basically, it will thump and thump, causing the needle to bounce in the groove. It may not jump out of the groove (it might, but I doubt it) but that will certainly detract from the clarity of your system.

A slimline sub positioned on a different plane from the turntable (ie on the floor) will be the goodness. A few manufacturers make slimline subs and to be fair, they'll most likely out perform the Wharfedale.

I agree, if you're listening to records you need to isolate the turntable from vibrations. Along with moving the sub, you can also get some isolating foam and place it underneath the turntable, something like this:
https://www.listeningpost.co.nz/Products/Turntables/Audio-Accessories-Adapter-stereo-home-theater/Primacoustic-Isoplane-Isolation-Foam-__I.56115__C.33747__N.27756

33coupe

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#2084610 5-Sep-2018 22:35

I could be wrong but using pure or direct mode doesn't use the sub does it?

I use one of these modes when playing records, I don't use stereo.

Thanks for the heads up about isolation as well

bendud

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#2098428 29-Sep-2018 08:36

I think you have a furniture and room problem rather than an electronic one.

The unit is just too big for the room, which pushes the FL and FR into the corners. It's a shame as it looks like a nice unit - for a room twice the size!

If the unit was wide enough for the TV (plus a little bit) you could get big gains in SQ by putting the sub down on the ground and having the FL and FR more "centre stage", as it were - requiring less toe in as well which usually gives broader 'sweet spot" listening area.

I ended up building my own unit out of a number recycled rimu doorframes. A labour of love to be sure, but very satisfying - many happy hours with biscuit joiner and sander! Now with new LCRs I need to make it wider , so I can lift up the Tannoy DC6 Signature FL and FR up to ear level (currently on home made english oak plinths - very solid but too low really).

Agree with the comments about running Audyssey (or equivalent) if you can.

Happy tinkering!

From the Antarctic Riviera

33coupe

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#2099840 2-Oct-2018 09:46

Thanks for the replies. Apologies for the delay, got a bit distracted with other things.

I made a few minor tweaks (moved sub, moved unit, granite tiles, brought centre speaker as far forward as poss) re run audyssey. Does seem to be a slight improvement.

I made the TV unit myself from some old internal doors. I'm glad it took the weight of the plasma lol.

Aside what was mentioned above about room and speakers I should probably shelve my plans for separates and concentrate on a bigger house deposit...

Cheers all

wazzageek

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#2099969 2-Oct-2018 13:05

Have you checked your cables? I changed over to some 2.0mm (or 2.5mm - I don't recall now) and was surprised at the change in sound that using a more appropriate cable made.

(Oh, and EDIT: I'd +1 the idea of saving for a house ;-))

33coupe

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#2099981 2-Oct-2018 13:10

wazzageek:
Have you checked your cables? I changed over to some 2.0mm (or 2.5mm - I don't recall now) and was surprised at the change in sound that using a more appropriate cable made.

(Oh, and EDIT: I'd +1 the idea of saving for a house ;-))

My friend said the same thing difference was night and day.

I got some pretty thick cable from blue jean Co in USA. Thought I might as well get something good. Only thing that won't need to change in system.

Thanks tho, good tip

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