No HDTV for Freeview Satellite customers

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freitasm

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#86352 11-Sep-2007 23:13

ZIMsar10: This taken from their website:
Welcome to a new era in broadcasting. For the first time, you can watch your favourite programmes in crystal clear, digital quality, for free!

No more bad reception, no monthly fees and no contracts free digital TV and radio for all New Zealanders.

All you need is a set top box and if necessary, a new satellite dish. The Freeview satellite service covers all of New Zealand and is available NOW.

Digital means better reception, ultimately more channels and new services it's an exciting development and it's here now. Learn about Freeview and how you can enjoy a richer entertainment experience in your home.

http://freeviewnz.tv/index.php?section_id=1

Well, there's nothing there promising or implying HDTV. Digital doesn't mean HDTV...

cyril7

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#86359 12-Sep-2007 07:56

I can't remember the stream bandwidth offhand for Satellite, but for Cable TV it's around 36mbps per stream. I believe Satellite is lower. I really must refresh my memory :)

Sky/FreeView run 22500kSym/sec on each mux (2 per transponder), which post FEC gives around 30Mb/s usable rate, if the same symbol rates were used with DVB-S2 8PSK muxs then they would acheive a 40-45Mb/s usable rate. Depending on what modualtion parameters are used a DVB-T mux will max out at around 24Mb/s usable post FEC rate.

Cyril

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#86367 12-Sep-2007 09:23

freitasm:
ZIMsar10: This taken from their website:
Welcome to a new era in broadcasting. For the first time, you can watch your favourite programmes in crystal clear, digital quality, for free!

No more bad reception, no monthly fees and no contracts free digital TV and radio for all New Zealanders.

All you need is a set top box and if necessary, a new satellite dish. The Freeview satellite service covers all of New Zealand and is available NOW.

Digital means better reception, ultimately more channels and new services it's an exciting development and it's here now. Learn about Freeview and how you can enjoy a richer entertainment experience in your home.

http://freeviewnz.tv/index.php?section_id=1

Well, there's nothing there promising or implying HDTV. Digital doesn't mean HDTV...

No there isn't, but you missed my point entirely & I'm quite aware of what Digital means. I clearly stated:

It seems silly to me that they are encouraging people to take up Satellite TV & yet *at this time* they no plans to broadcast in HDTV for current or future Satellite customers.

Effectively, people are forking out a reasonable amount of money, for a method of delivery of which at this time Freeview will not be offering HDTV, I belive it should be clearly stated on their homepage that "there are no current plans to offer HDTV over Satellite". Currently this information is hidden in their help & trouble shooting section. I find it very annoying that they are completely shafting the people who have invested in a Satellite dish.

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#86368 12-Sep-2007 09:29

richms: Sat doesnt cover 100% - you need a dish and cabling in the house to a TV to get it, whereas the UHF will typically be ok with an indoor antenna in loads of peoples houses. This is a huge advantage to the dvb-t service that makes it much more viable to most city dwellers, plus I would say a lot more houses have UHF external antennas as a result of the old sky packages then have unused dishes on them.

Since when doesn't Satellite cover 100% (if not it's probably 99%), either way is covers significantly more area than UHF & with New Zealand's terrain, this is a very important factor. Your comment about UHF would be ok using an indoor aerial doesn't seem correct, especially when it will be required to receive a signal for HDTV broadcast, having it inside will affect the signal quality & ultimately the picture quality.

sbiddle

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#86370 12-Sep-2007 09:54

ZIMsar10:
Since when doesn't Satellite cover 100% (if not it's probably 99%), either way is covers significantly more area than UHF & with New Zealand's terrain, this is a very important factor. Your comment about UHF would be ok using an indoor aerial doesn't seem correct, especially when it will be required to receive a signal for HDTV broadcast, having it inside will affect the signal quality & ultimately the picture quality.

Using an internal aerial with a DVB-T receiver will work well for many people who are in line of sight coverage of a transmitter. In Christchurch for example where one transmitter covers the entire city a lot of people would be able to get acceptible coverage from an internal aerial. Digital broadcasts don't suffer from ghosting like analogue broadcasts if the aerial isn't aimed correctly.

The DVB-H trial in Auckland gave brilliant results both outdoors and indoors around all of Auckland and that's with a mobile phone with a small aerial.

Zimsar10

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#86371 12-Sep-2007 09:58

sbiddle:
ZIMsar10:
Since when doesn't Satellite cover 100% (if not it's probably 99%), either way is covers significantly more area than UHF & with New Zealand's terrain, this is a very important factor. Your comment about UHF would be ok using an indoor aerial doesn't seem correct, especially when it will be required to receive a signal for HDTV broadcast, having it inside will affect the signal quality & ultimately the picture quality.

Using an internal aerial with a DVB-T receiver will work well for many people who are in line of sight coverage of a transmitter. In Christchurch for example where one transmitter covers the entire city a lot of people would be able to get acceptible coverage from an internal aerial. Digital broadcasts don't suffer from ghosting like analogue broadcasts if the aerial isn't aimed correctly.

The DVB-H trial in Auckland gave brilliant results both outdoors and indoors around all of Auckland and that's with a mobile phone with a small aerial.

Interesting, I would of thought that building materials would deteriorate the signal some what, thanks so much for this information.

cyril7

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#86375 12-Sep-2007 10:12

DVB-T uses COFDM which is very good (excellent infact) at dealing with mulitpath/ghosting signals but very poor at dealing with impulse noise.

The ATSC decided to go with 8VSB modulation which has the opposite characteristic, there reasoning was that impulse noise was a big problem when attempting to cover large areas of open ground which is a big part of the American terrain. City dwellers normally would be using cable (infact over 80% of US homes get their TV both FTA and pay via cable or Sat).

Anyhow, as such if you live in a good coverage area you should expect reasonable coverage even with an internal antenna, however to overcome local in house impulse noise you may need to revert to an external antenna. Having lived with DVB-T for awhile when living in Aus I found the continual disruptions very annoying and we had a good signal, with a well designed antenna with quadshield cabling.

DVB-T is knowhere near as stable as DVB-S due to its lack of immunity to impulse noise (ie everytime the fridge starts or stops the pic stutters or the sound chips).

If I have a choice I would take DVB-S everytime.

DVB-H uses a more robust part of the COFDM transmission, as such its more immune however at a significant cost of bitrate, ie around 2Mb/s max.

Cyril

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#86380 12-Sep-2007 11:13

cyril7: DVB-T uses COFDM which is very good (excellent infact) at dealing with mulitpath/ghosting signals but very poor at dealing with impulse noise.

The ATSC decided to go with 8VSB modulation which has the opposite characteristic, there reasoning was that impulse noise was a big problem when attempting to cover large areas of open ground which is a big part of the American terrain. City dwellers normally would be using cable (infact over 80% of US homes get their TV both FTA and pay via cable or Sat).

Anyhow, as such if you live in a good coverage area you should expect reasonable coverage even with an internal antenna, however to overcome local in house impulse noise you may need to revert to an external antenna. Having lived with DVB-T for awhile when living in Aus I found the continual disruptions very annoying and we had a good signal, with a well designed antenna with quadshield cabling.

DVB-T is knowhere near as stable as DVB-S due to its lack of immunity to impulse noise (ie everytime the fridge starts or stops the pic stutters or the sound chips).

If I have a choice I would take DVB-S everytime.

DVB-H uses a more robust part of the COFDM transmission, as such its more immune however at a significant cost of bitrate, ie around 2Mb/s max.

Cyril

Very interesting post yet again Cyril, your wealth of information on this subject is astounding & a pleasure to read, thanks so much.

openmedia

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#86395 12-Sep-2007 13:06

You just need to remember that freeview haven't stated that they will be in HD on satellite, they just don't currently have plans.

Also they have never stated that their satellite would be High Definition, although their use of the term High Resolution did cause some confusion.

For the moment it is all wait and see. Once there terrestrial service has bedded in and there is some additional capacity, probably via an additional satellite, then who knows what we might see.

If the lack of HD really winds you up then you need to speak to TVNZ, TVWorks and freeview.

Steve

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

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#86490 12-Sep-2007 23:49

i have a feeling when we finally get hdtv channels the world would have moved on! when we had dialup internet everyone else had broadband. i think it's to do with our 'market' of non geek or av junkie or rather lack of it

openmedia

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#86513 13-Sep-2007 08:48

joker97: i have a feeling when we finally get hdtv channels the world would have moved on! when we had dialup internet everyone else had broadband. i think it's to do with our 'market' of non geek or av junkie or rather lack of it

A lot of people in NZ got ADSL way before the UK and other countries. Problem is they over took us.

Also NZ has a record of being an early adopter of a lot of technology, good examples of which were our rapid mobile us, and spread of eftpos.

I'm pleased we are following with regards to digital TV because we haven't made the same mistakes as Australia.

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

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#86532 13-Sep-2007 11:21

Sometimes being a late adopter can also be good - we will have MPEG4 DVB-T broadcasts and will also have DAB+ for our DAB Digital Radio when it launches and won't have the terrible codecs that DAB users are stuck with.

PromNZ

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#86659 14-Sep-2007 10:16

openmedia:
joker97: i have a feeling when we finally get hdtv channels the world would have moved on! when we had dialup internet everyone else had broadband. i think it's to do with our 'market' of non geek or av junkie or rather lack of it

A lot of people in NZ got ADSL way before the UK and other countries. Problem is they over took us.

Also NZ has a record of being an early adopter of a lot of technology, good examples of which were our rapid mobile us, and spread of eftpos.

I'm pleased we are following with regards to digital TV because we haven't made the same mistakes as Australia.

Agreed. The Australian digital tv setup is a great example of how not to do it. Even the Americans are still stumbling around arguing about who pays what.

Freeview is doing it the right way IMO, even with Government money paying for most of it. Long term, it's a good thing. Short term, they'll always be a few bumps on the road to overcome. And considering how much and how quickly technology advances, it's pretty hard crystal ball gazing 10 years ahead.

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#86697 14-Sep-2007 15:30

I bought my DVB-S box knowing it'd be replaced at some point with a HD box (via T or S). One reaon why I bought a trademe cheapie at $110.

I do think its a bit sad there not going to do HD over sat, tho I think at the moment thats most likely a political/PR line their media bunnies are putting out, even if they had (long term)plans I'd assume they'd keep it quiet for now.

Picture quality is plenty adaquate for watching TV, some HD shows & movies could benefit from 720p/DD but then I have a DVD player for that, and if NZ's internet ever gets going quick enough I can always download HD TV...

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