DEBATE: All general purpose laptops should be easily upgradable or be banned from import

Forums › Laptops and mobile computers › DEBATE: All general purpose laptops should be easily upgradable or be banned from import

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#2554731 1-Sep-2020 11:33

Behodar:

gehenna:

Not so practical anymore when a lot of modern devices have storage and memory built into the motherboard.

That's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy... essentially you're saying that it's difficult to upgrade a PC because the manufacturers have made them difficult to upgrade.

It's easy to upgrade most desktop PCs, because size and portability are not issues for desktop PCs. The problem is people wanting smaller and lighter portable devices where compromises in performance and reparability are always going to happen.

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Kookoo

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#2554736 1-Sep-2020 11:39

I think what you're looking for is a mandated standardised upgrade interface that allows you to plug in an external upgrade kit. It's getting there - USB-C and Thunderbolt are half way there with eGPU support, and HT-X potentially allows peripheral devices to be added to RAM-CPU bus.

So if at some stage the industry adopted a hybrid PCI-E + HTX port or something like that, you could get a whole bunch of external upgrade kit manufacturers leveraging it. You're right though that the only way for this to happen is by force - no laptop manufacturer would agree to voluntarily adopt an architecture that allows its devices' lifespan to be increased potentially indefinitely, by a third party.

Battery replacement warrants a different conversation though. I would love to see 2 things:

1) Manufacturers need to be mandated to supply original replacement batteries for a minimum 5 year period after the end of production run of the device

2) Batteries need to be designed in a way that allows their replacement by low skill technicians at your local IT shop

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#2554741 1-Sep-2020 11:59

Our market is too small, if we make too hard for OEMs they will simply bypass us and sell elsewhere. The answer is not to have more regulations as this limits innovation, pushes prices up and constrains supply.

The answer is when buying a laptop is to do one homework and consider not only what the requirements are now but what the requirements will be in two years then buy the best spec'd machine ones budget will allow.

Another way to look at this is to look at the full picture. Many buyers select machines to suit their software and not select the software to suit their machine. If the requirement is for "general purpose" which for the purpose of this post I interpret that as being low to midrange and relatively light to medium use. Given this then maybe a review of the software requirements could show that switching to Linux would allow lower specifications and longer life for laptops. Chromebooks maybe a choice as their hardware requirements are much lighter however these machines are time bombed for updates from Google. They wont stop working at this time they simply wont receive updates. There is also Neverware which is a version of Chromium OS that can be installed on a wide range of laptops and desktops.

waikariboy

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#2554744 1-Sep-2020 12:17

I think there should a sticker on every machine showing how much you can upgrade. A rating 1-3 would be great.

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#2554747 1-Sep-2020 12:25

waikariboy:

I think there should a sticker on every machine showing how much you can upgrade. A rating 1-3 would be great.

Yup, some indication of upgradability would be great.

CPU, RAM, HDD, Battery being the primary things. Just a tick or cross to each to show at a glance without having to read a manual or forums to find out.

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#2554753 1-Sep-2020 12:41

Behodar:

gehenna:

Not so practical anymore when a lot of modern devices have storage and memory built into the motherboard.

That's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy... essentially you're saying that it's difficult to upgrade a PC because the manufacturers have made them difficult to upgrade.

No, I'm saying that technology evolves and the mobile computing bottlenecks that people complained about for decades are no longer much of an issue because things like storage and memory are a direct part of the motherboard. Also we're not talking about PC's we're talking about laptops, the requirements are different.

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#2554773 1-Sep-2020 13:39

The crux of the matter is that modern consumerism is mutually exclusive from environmentalism/conservation. A lot of wastefulness such as upgrading to the latest flag-ship device is more related to wanton displays of wealth than any real functional need.

This topic, and the type of push-back you'd receive from manufacturers is also kind of related to the right-to-repair debate which is raging in the USA at the moment.

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#2554777 1-Sep-2020 13:43

While I personally prefer to upgrade or recycle, and I'm not philosophically opposed to such a law, I don't see any way to effectively enforce upgradeability in the manner suggested without a major shift in the global technology supply chain.

Such a shift is beyond NZ's sphere of influence. However, the NZ government could take a stand on upgradeabiltiy and bankroll the resulting financial losses as I can't see any private organisation doing so.

In the absence of government support then it might be possible to test the waters for such devices. It would probably need a large charity to sponsor The Warehouse and other NZ computer assemblers to develop such a range of devices.

Another option might be to join one of the existing overseas projects that do something similar but they are often focused on third-world users and a broader set of issues.

Then once a range is developed, the real problem will be selling it in a nation where most end-users will not pay a premium for a laptop that might extend a 4-6 year life to a 8-9 year life.

Dynamic:

If all general purpose computers had the ability to have their RAM and primary drive and battery upgraded by your local techy teenager with a screwdriver set, a spare 5 minutes, and a hankering for a pizza as a reward for his or her time, I think this would give all of these machines a longer potential useful life, even if they get retired to Grandma playing Scrabble online and video chatting to the grandkids every other day.

Most of the laptops I have ever bought were already upgradeable in this way and it usually does not extend their useful life enough to make this a worthwhile proposition. I've done a lot of those RAM, HDD and even battery upgrades. The economic benefit is clear but there is usually an ongoing cost to retaining the rest of the laptop's dated technology.

The exceptions to this have been when any of those technologies makes a major leap in performance such as the move from mechanical storage devices to solid state storage devices. I can replace a hard disk drive (HDD) with a solid state drive (SSD) having a compatible interface to get a significant leap in performance (faster initial response time and faster read time).

There are also significant blockages due to new technologies forcing replacement of the core of the computer. The move from 32-bit CPUs to 64-bit CPUs being one example where laptops require different motherboards.

In between these two extremes, I see the biggest issue to overcome is failing motherboards. I support many people with computers older than 6 years and these computers generally end their lives when motherboards fail. Replacing 7+ year old motherboards is generally close to, or more than, the price of a usable replacement. Display replacement is not quite as expensive but presents a similar dilemna. Furthermore, there's also a problem with inconsistent component life-cycles e.g. known problems with capacitor life, keyboards and their keys, external interfaces failing e.g. power connectors.

Also, laptops are not the best device to upgrade to extend their life because users so often shorten their lives already. Laptops are more susceptible to users failing to observe environmental requirements or deliberately mistreating them: leaving them on the floor to clog the fans and filters with dust; blocking vents to overheating e.g. placing them on pillows and quilts; throwing them onto furniture or the floor; spilling food and beverages over them; and so on.

This isn't a complete list of significant issues, including some posted while I typed this.

Edited to fix two grammatical errors.

Edited again to add this link on upgrade or buy. It touches on some of the issues I've mentioned:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/298783-the-eternal-pc-question-is-it-better-to-upgrade-or-to-buy-a-new-system

The motherboard, in other words, is the component most likely to force you into a replacement cycle rather than being able to make do with an upgrade — and it’s very difficult to future-proof systems or guard against that. The good news is, most people don’t need to replace their CPUs very often these days.

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#2554810 1-Sep-2020 14:40

I'd prefer user up-gradable/replaceable parts
but...

Why just laptops
Same reasoning should be applied to tablets & phones .

You then have the issue of defining easily "easily upgradable"
Does "easily" mean : home user , PC Tech, specialist repairer or Manufacturers repair Service only ?
Does "easily" mean a removable cover for RAM & HD/M.2
Would Laptops needing a complete tear down just to get at HD be OK or not ?

And does the rule apply to 10" - 12" ultraportable notebooks , or just full size notebooks ?

And when does any HD/RAM upgrade break the warranty, if not done authorised manufacturers repair centre .
I know of one manufacturer who refused a warranty after a local authorized Seller(Laptop shop) upgraded the HD .

edit
I'd actually prefer manufacturers stop selling underpowered crap thats barely usable , manufacturers stop preloading bloatware & crapware into Win ,manufacturers stop splitting HD up into 5 partitions (yes up to 5 partitions)
And MS should make the Windows Minimum spec something thats actually worthwhile buying .
That would solve alot of complaints about the new OS being too slow .

networkn

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#2554815 1-Sep-2020 14:57

As someone who works in the same field, I have wondered the same thing over time. It's an admirable thought/wish, but ultimately the practicality of it isn't ideal. As others have mentioned, the focus on smaller, lighter, more 'pretty' device, makes it pretty much impractical to do, I honestly think the demand would be pretty minimal and the downsides would probably outweigh the positives. Consumers want the last possible cost as well. I'd imagine the cost would increase for "upgradeable" units too. We have had clients ask us to upgrade devices in the past, usually at the 4-5 year mark. We generally consider the lifespan for a device of decent quality to be between 4-5 years, and the cost of upgrading those machines, vs the potential for them to fail in a non cost-effective to repair way, unrelated to the upgrade, is high and even the work is done and component cost means you'd likely be overcapitalizing.

There are many other areas we as consumers could look to improve our ongoing longevity and planetary impact.

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#2554921 1-Sep-2020 16:06

It's not a workable idea:

1. Who are you to decide what type/form of computer is best suited to other peoples needs? You pick what is best for you, and I will pick what is best for me.

2. How do you define "general purpose" and "easily upgradeable"? It's much more than commonsense. You will need watertight legal definitions of both of these terms if you want Customs to block imports or seize non-compliant machines at the border. You will be challenged in court by manufacturers, importers and individuals.

3. Who will pay the costs of having an official intercept and vet every computer someone tries to bring into the country to decide if it's "general purpose" and "easily upgradeable"? Will there be an appeals authority?

3. Who will pay the costs of having an official review every make and model of computer sold in the domestic market to decide if it's "general purpose" and "easily upgradeable"? Will there be an appeals authority? What will it do to the costs of computers?

4. Who will be exempt? A visiting business person carrying their surface or iMac that doesn't meet your definition? A tourist with a laptop? If so, why? If not, why not? You will need watertight rules for all of these. With bodies to implement and enforce them.

5. What do you do if manufacturers just decide it's not worth making special machines to satisfy the rules for our very small market?

6. Will you block personal imports? If you do, it will be an administrative and logistical tangle. If you don't, local retailers will be squeezed as they are bypassed by people who don't want machines that pass your test. For whatever reason (lightness, brand, cost or whatever).

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#2554944 1-Sep-2020 16:26

I am currently on the receiving end of Microsoft's obsolescent policies. Seven years ago I purchased a Windows 8 Pro 128gb tablet c/w keyboard and travel mouse. This unit has been upgraded software wise to W10 and the unit has worked faultlessly up until just recently when I noticed the case had started to expand and a while after that the cooling fan started to squeal. Even though the unit still functions normally it appears that the battery has expanded causing the case to buckle. No problem I thought. Take it back to Harvey Norman were I got it from and ask them to fix it or send it to Microsoft's repair center for repair. When the salesman stopped laughing and said you must be joking mate referring to something seven years old he said they could not fix it. Talking to a staff member of Microsoft NZ I was told it was a sealed unit, not fixable and the batteries were not replaceable.

Having paid $2000.00 on a device I am a bit disappointed that I bought a throw away item.It looks like I have to buy a new one but this time I will get a cheaper, say $500 ish Android one so that if something goes wrong with it out of guarantee I wont feel so annoyed about it. If I just wanted to buy a new tablet to upgrade I would most likely look at Microsoft again as I like to W10 system but they have now lost my custom to another brand.

Or am I not being realistic about an expected life span of such an item? I still use an approx 12 year old Toshiba upgraded laptop for some video copying work so some devices last the distance !

I do not think laws will ever be put into place preventing such un-repairable items being sold but Iv'e learnt now to ask when purchasing what is the repairability in the future.

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#2554945 1-Sep-2020 16:27

Interesting comments about everyone wanting thinner speaker products so that's why they are glued together and not fixable or upgradeable.

Is this actually consumer driven or a manufacturer driven target?
For the manufacturers it gives a wonderful built in obsolescence - relatively few people bother with the high expense of battery replacement or new disk - they just replace.

There was a survey done in Europe not too long ago (which I can't now find) where if a buyer had a choice between a 'sleaker' phone that couldn't have a battery replaced by the user versus a thicker phone with user swapable battery, most users would go for being able to replace themselves and make it last longer. In fact I think the EU was proposing easily replaceable battery be mandatory in the next few years. Likewise a common phone charger on all mobiles.

Having worked in IT for far longer than I care to admit, many laptops particularly can't have even basic upgrade/repair like new SSD RAM and even battery changed without involving expensive, specialised skills. There is a huge amount of IT gear junked that could easily have an extended life.

I don't believe this is all "what the consumers want" - but rather the manufacturers know they can get away with it.

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#2554979 1-Sep-2020 16:51

I am a little perplexed by comments to the effect that a normal lifespan for a modern laptop (or other similar device) is around 5 years, give or take a year. Surely that is ridiculously short? Why should that be the norm? I get that there are specific use cases that warrant the latest and greatest, but five years should hardly be acceptable as a standard. My newest devices, which are indeed starting to develop issues, are older than that, and some are much older. Even if they are not repairable, which is another issue, they ought to be good for at least 10 years. This is incredibly wasteful, if nothing else.

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#2554987 1-Sep-2020 17:08

Rikkitic:

I am a little perplexed by comments to the effect that a normal lifespan for a modern laptop (or other similar device) is around 5 years, give or take a year. Surely that is ridiculously short? Why should that be the norm? I get that there are specific use cases that warrant the latest and greatest, but five years should hardly be acceptable as a standard. My newest devices, which are indeed starting to develop issues, are older than that, and some are much older. Even if they are not repairable, which is another issue, they ought to be good for at least 10 years. This is incredibly wasteful, if nothing else.

The expected life of a consumer device according to most manufacturers is 12 months. Generally I'd expect business quality laptops to last 5+ years, but not lower end consumer gear.

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