DEBATE: All general purpose laptops should be easily upgradable or be banned from import

Forums › Laptops and mobile computers › DEBATE: All general purpose laptops should be easily upgradable or be banned from import

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Networkn
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#2555400 2-Sep-2020 08:49

alasta:

Consider a scenario where a laptop is five years old and has the following issues:

Running slow and needs an upgrade.
Software glitches.
Worn keyboard and trackpad.
Diminished battery capacity.
Now let's assume that the owner of that computer is a typical user who doesn't have the skills to fix any of those things themselves. What is the economic viability of them paying the service agent to fix all of those things, versus just buying a new machine with a fresh warranty?

Yup, goes to the point I was making about over capitilizing a machine and the risk that upgrading those parts, leaves the risk (unrelated) of other hardware failure which may not be economical to fix.

antonknee

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#2555417 2-Sep-2020 09:12

alasta:

Consider a scenario where a laptop is five years old and has the following issues:

Running slow and needs an upgrade.
Software glitches.
Worn keyboard and trackpad.
Diminished battery capacity.
Now let's assume that the owner of that computer is a typical user who doesn't have the skills to fix any of those things themselves. What is the economic viability of them paying the service agent to fix all of those things, versus just buying a new machine with a fresh warranty?

I agree - not economic and I would certainly just be buying a new one.

I do wonder though if OP's point was that the idea of easy upgrades/service or regulating such would make it economic to do.

Rikkitic

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#2555436 2-Sep-2020 09:40

Discussions like this have a way of devolving into all or nothing propositions. Maybe an older laptop could not be upgraded to satisfy everyone's needs. That does not mean it couldn't work for some people if it was upgradable. If there was some standardisation of wear components like keyboard and trackpads (and screens), they could be made plug and play replaceable. And the battery, of course. Just like the good old days. And a new ROM and OS. Why not?

When you throw out a laptop, you also throw out all the things that still work fine, like PS components (assuming they weren't cheap crap to start with). When you make assumptions about the economic viability of upgrading instead of replacing, you also make assumptions about the hidden costs of discarding all the other bits, then reclaiming some of the materials, then melting everything down and separating the recyclable stuff out, then re-manufacturing the reclaimed bits into something else. Jeez, talk about an inefficient wasteful environmentally harmful costly process! Wouldn't it be so much better just to replace the faulty bits and keep the rest?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

networkn

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#2555442 2-Sep-2020 09:46

What would be better overall I think is for NZ to really lift it's recycling game. This gets around almost all of the concerns people raise here.

elpenguino

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#2555443 2-Sep-2020 09:46

True, look at desktops where standardisation means you can keep a machine going for years using the parts of your choice. If laptops had mini, standardised versions of everything this would meet the OP's needs.

This is difficult to do. Some users want different size screens and that would mean having motherboards larger or smaller than they need to be.

I can't see this problem being solved by the manufacturer's who do not bear the cost of e-waste. It will have to be forced on them, maybe when culture changes and more value is placed on recycling and waste reduction.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2555458 2-Sep-2020 10:33

The problem with recycling is , unless its VERY heavily regulated & policed , recycling is a scam
The byproducts of recycling can be extremely toxic , to the point where it would have been better to have not recycled

We just send our recycling to 3rd world countries , where its just stripped by children , then dumped or burnt off & causes real pollution issues .
Or we just stockpile it untill theres no room left & then start to dump it (eg NZ & plastic bottles)
I used to work in a company recycling Toner carts. Despite pretending to be clean & green, they were anything but & would tip waste into storm water drains.

So dont believe that recycling is all clean & green, sometimes its better to send it to the local dump .

Rikkitic

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#2555482 2-Sep-2020 10:54

The point of this discussion (I think) is how to avoid having to recycle by prolonging the useful life of certain products.

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networkn

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#2555484 2-Sep-2020 10:57

Rikkitic:

The point of this discussion (I think) is how to avoid having to recycle by prolonging the useful life of certain products.

Which for all the good reasons outlined over the past 3 pages, isn't going to happen, so, given we do a pretty poor job of recycling here, we should do something about that, since EVENTUALLY it will need recycling regardless.

One of the issues raised at the start of this discussion was that a lot of stuff ends up in landfill taking forever to break down.

antonknee

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#2555487 2-Sep-2020 10:59

As has been pointed out by a few other posters, besides being able to upgrade and keep a product servicable for a long period of time, maybe making manufacturers/suppliers/retailers partially or completely responsible for closing the loop on their products is another solution?

The true cost of what we consume is not reflected in the price we pay, and we therefore live in quite a wasteful society (in my opinion). Perhaps it should be.

networkn

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#2555512 2-Sep-2020 11:29

antonknee:

As has been pointed out by a few other posters, besides being able to upgrade and keep a product servicable for a long period of time, maybe making manufacturers/suppliers/retailers partially or completely responsible for closing the loop on their products is another solution?

The true cost of what we consume is not reflected in the price we pay, and we therefore live in quite a wasteful society (in my opinion). Perhaps it should be.

Which is fine, except that the big international companies would then take back your gear, hand it off to a third party, who would find a devious way to dump it in landfill.

Perhaps we charge consumers a disposal fee for every electronic device, and use those fees to set up heavily regulated recycling/upcycling centres.

antonknee

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#2555535 2-Sep-2020 11:57

networkn:

antonknee:

As has been pointed out by a few other posters, besides being able to upgrade and keep a product servicable for a long period of time, maybe making manufacturers/suppliers/retailers partially or completely responsible for closing the loop on their products is another solution?

The true cost of what we consume is not reflected in the price we pay, and we therefore live in quite a wasteful society (in my opinion). Perhaps it should be.

Which is fine, except that the big international companies would then take back your gear, hand it off to a third party, who would find a devious way to dump it in landfill.

Perhaps we charge consumers a disposal fee for every electronic device, and use those fees to set up heavily regulated recycling/upcycling centres.

You're probably not wrong, I think we need only look at what happens with milk bottles and cardboard to see the ways such a scheme could go wrong. Remember when we were stockpiling recyclables because none of the usual markets would buy it?

I've alway wondered how the trade in schemes for phones work - where do these end up? A lot will be sold as refurbished devices sure. And what about Apple's scheme - I understand they extract a lot of the raw material from devices and reuse, but is it enough? They also mention a nebulous "recycling partner" who takes care of stuff Apple can't/won't handle - so what do they actually do with the devices?

Obviously the real solution is probably to consume less...

networkn

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#2555539 2-Sep-2020 12:02

antonknee:

Obviously the real solution is probably to consume less...

Yeah, I guess that's true. I am quite conscious of packaging when I shop at the supermarket and other places now. Medications are another thing, but it's difficult. We now buy our cheese slices in larger unwrapped amounts, however, we don't get through cheese and that can sometimes mean mould, which then means large waste occasionally. I guess food waste is different, but it feels difficult to get the balance quite right.

I consider myself quite a heavy consumer, I like the newest latest things and often don't keep things that long before upgrading them again. However, my stuff always goes to someone else afterward.

I find repairing difficult to reconcile as I strongly dislike spending money on repairs, when the replacement has features I want and a warranty, and then I can stop worrying that after spending $500 on replacement parts, something else fails later.... Ugh..

gzt

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#2555694 2-Sep-2020 14:45

alasta: Now let's assume that the owner of that computer is a typical user who doesn't have the skills to fix any of those things themselves. What is the economic viability of them paying the service agent to fix all of those things, versus just buying a new machine with a fresh warranty?

Imo you would be surprised how many people do choose to repair or partially repair in this situation. Many repair shops keep several shelves of expired donor laptops for exactly this reason. There is no doubt in my mind even more repairs and upgrades would be performed if laptops become available with standardised form factors.

antonknee

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#2555832 2-Sep-2020 17:45

networkn:

antonknee:

Obviously the real solution is probably to consume less...

Yeah, I guess that's true. I am quite conscious of packaging when I shop at the supermarket and other places now. Medications are another thing, but it's difficult. We now buy our cheese slices in larger unwrapped amounts, however, we don't get through cheese and that can sometimes mean mould, which then means large waste occasionally. I guess food waste is different, but it feels difficult to get the balance quite right.

I consider myself quite a heavy consumer, I like the newest latest things and often don't keep things that long before upgrading them again. However, my stuff always goes to someone else afterward.

I find repairing difficult to reconcile as I strongly dislike spending money on repairs, when the replacement has features I want and a warranty, and then I can stop worrying that after spending $500 on replacement parts, something else fails later.... Ugh..

Are you me?

I'm also making an effort with packaging and general consumption but sometimes finding the balance hard to strike.... That's the thing though right - progress not perfection.

I'm also a very heavy consumer, my friends often joke I change my tech more often than I change my underwear. But like you I always make sure it gets sold or donated to another family member (which reminds me I need to make some posts in the Offers and Wanted forum...).

I also dislike spending money on repairs. Maybe I've just had bad experiences, but I've always found an ex-repair is never quite the same. Plus it's just not as satisfying as the new toy, let alone the benefit of warranty etc.

Yes I realise this is diametrically opposed to my earlier "consume less" comment 😁

richms

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#2555842 2-Sep-2020 18:14

The only one I care about being swappable is any form of storage. I dont recall the last time I upgraded the ram in a laptop from what I bought it with. Storage is only because I want to remove it before recycling. All mine sofar have had 2.5" drives or a m2 in them. If I get something soldered on then it will probably end up in the dead technology draw along with 20 mobile phones and several crap tablets.

What I would like to see is a law around support time for upgrades from the sale of cheap junk gear. If the importer cant ensure that all android patches are available for it for a length of time after sale, then it should be able to be deemed no longer fit for purpose and a pro-rated refund due on it based on the length of time owned and when it stopped getting updates. Its not the hardware on devices that is the problem causing ewaste, its software.

Crappy old first gen core i7 machines are still usable for many things since the demands have not gone up massivly since they were new. Anything older than that will not be any use when upgraded. A low spec machine now has about the same ram and storage as one from 5 years ago, so upgrading wouldnt help that out at all.

Richard rich.ms

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