mail disapearing into xtra SMTP servers. new over-zealous anti-spam?

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › mail disapearing into xtra SMTP servers. new over-zealous anti-spam?

freakalad

231 posts

Master Geek

#34507 25-May-2009 11:31

As of late (the last 2 weeks or so), we've been seeing mail being delivered to various xtra SMTP MTA servers (as we've been doing with these addresses for years), being accepted OK, but never getting delivered at the remote end.

Through an exhaustive process-of-elimination, we've been able to ascertain that there's no issues with our servers or DNS (not black-listed, SPF is OK, DKIM, VBR, etc, etc all OK), nothing wrong with the servers located on customer's site (same server running as-is for years now; no new changes affected for some time), which only leaves the bit in-between: xtra/telecom servers

From what I can gather, they're implemented some new, additional, internal anti-spam measure, without informing anyone, and also not acknowledging anything going wrong on their end (of course)

This is not yet a crisis, but still VERY annoying.
From chatting to some folks, it seems that recipients are to go onto their xtra "webmail" & whitelist senders or domains that they want to allow through (which is obviously not practical on SO many levels; keep in mind that some recipients that have a local server/client have not been on their webmail in YEARS), or the senders need to complete some sort of application to be submitted to xtra for whitelisting (...I thought that's what DNSBL & RBL is for...)

From a sending SMTP server's perspective, as far as I'm concerned, if I initiate an SMTP connection, go through the motions of delivering a messages & get a 200-series (220/221/250) "delivery-OK" response back, the message is delivered & no longer my concern.

Hope this helps someone & spares them the frustration we had to endure

- J

FLOSS'er, aspiring Maker

tr3v

234 posts

Master Geek

#217636 25-May-2009 12:36

This is not a new problem. Last year, I tried jumping through all the hoops to ensure my email was being delivered to xtra.co.nz accounts from mail server (also on xtra plan). I was directed by Xtra to Yahoo support (Xtra's email is managed by Yahoo) to get whitelisted but this did not improve the situation.

In the end, I got that sick of following up every email to an xtra account with a text message, and explaining to people that they need to logon to webmail to manage their spam settings, that I migrated my server (Exchange 2003), as well as a couple of customers to Windows Live.

I miss a few features that Exchange provided, and recognise this is not a corporate solution, but it worked fine for me (only have 5 mailboxes), and best of all, my email now gets delivered!

sarnold

61 posts

Master Geek

#217655 25-May-2009 13:01

Had been getting mail from my SMTP server (Exchange on Paradise cable, not on any blacklist) put into recipient?s Xtra's spam folders. Xtra directed to http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/defer.html (I can only assume I was being treated as a spamer across Yahoo's whole system), answered some questions following a response from Yahoo, and it seems to be fixed.

freakalad

231 posts

Master Geek

#217659 25-May-2009 13:24

Yes, these are possible solutions to the problem, but doing this on scale is not feasible.
Should EVERY domain sending mail via an xtra MTA be whitelisted manually? We handle messaging for several domains, receiving thousands & 10's of thousands of messages on a daily basis, so this is simply not practical.
Do they even bother checking & take into account existing IETF/RFC standards, like SPF, DKIM, VBR, DNSBL, DNSRBL, etc (the list goes on & on).
Many companies I know that have an in-house mail server (managed or otherwise) do no know or care to know the details of said system.
exchange, as mentioned before, is a tough cookie at the best of times, even for experienced admins, so expecting end-users to be aware of the finer nuances is simply not feasibly practical.

Thus far, the only solution that addresses the issue 100% is using xtra for a backup MX, and setting up you own SMTP server, though this brings with it it's own set of problems & concerns.

(exchange, btw, does not have a stellar RFC-adherence record: greylisting, return-codes on invalid "RCPT TO", but this could be largely due to configuration)

FLOSS'er, aspiring Maker

tr3v

234 posts

Master Geek

#217670 25-May-2009 13:56

It was a while ago now, but I recall that the only thing I didn't do was use Domain Keys which Yahoo stipulate. I even tried setting up a test server with a new domain, single MTA, with a single SPF record but it was treated the same. Maybe it was because I was using the same IP address - but then I am an Xtra customer, trying to send to other Xtra customers. In the end I just gave up because I could.

The way I saw it, the biggest problem was the fact that Xtra customers using POP3 clients did not know that spam was being filtered in their webmail, or even knew that they had webmail in the first place. Often when I drew attention to this, they found other legitimate email there too.

freakalad

231 posts

Master Geek

#217674 25-May-2009 14:09

tr3v; could'nt agree more.

Maybe this problem/issue could've been averted with a bit of communication.

* inform POP-account holders of changes & reasoning. put a bit of marketing-spin on it for good measure
* send daily/weekly notifications, informing recipients, with a summary, of any mail caught in a spam-trap, and the means of releasing/whitelisting/blacklisting
* after 1 week/month, hard fail mail, & send NDR back to sender, reasoning, and again, the means of whitelisting
* make use of established RFC standards: if the mail passes SPF, DNBLS, tarpitting, greylisting, SpamAsassin, odds are, VERY likely, that it's NOT spam. If if is, provide option to blacklist

Expecting a 1:1 action in a system dealing with very large volumes does not make a whole lot of sense.

FLOSS'er, aspiring Maker

slotherby

85 posts

Master Geek

#217682 25-May-2009 14:31

I have to agree also.

I am the admin for a company that sends out lots of email to its members who have all signed up, etc,etc.

We have no end of problems with Xtra 'eating' the email with no info to either party. All I know is that I get it in the neck from the Boss on why his members aren't getting their email and why can't I fix it.

freakalad

231 posts

Master Geek

#217803 25-May-2009 20:14

slotherby :
I'd say : get detailed logs on your end.

If you can show that you've delivered mail according to RFC spec, and received a 200-series message back from the remote MTA, then it's not your problem/responsibility any more, but a remote admin's.

If I drop valid snail-main with postage fully-paid & correctly-addressed & formatted in a post-bin, or give it to a courier in his hands, then that is where my responsibility & control over the situation ends.
What happens with it after that is beyond my control, and frankly, not really my problem.

FLOSS'er, aspiring Maker

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richms

28168 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#217882 26-May-2009 02:15

Its going to take someone taking xtra to court over this before it gets the publicity that it needs that they are silently dropping mails.

IMO using an ISP that does this is as stupid as hiring a receptionist that throws half your snailmail out unopened because it might be a bill etc.

Richard rich.ms

Technofreak

6530 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#217960 26-May-2009 11:50

I tried to get some sense out of Xtra many months ago when they joined up with Yahoo and that not so fanstatstic "Bubble". I stopped getting email from people I used to regularly get email from. It was a PITA having to check my webmail.

I tackled Xtra about it, their response was for me to use the webmail and use the not spam function or what ever it is called to "train" their anti spam systems. I didn't see why I should need to do this, I didn't ask to be inflicted with this damn system they introduced. In the end I gave up, it was like talking to a brick wall in fact it was worse than that. The responses were as if they were from a robot. There was no intelligence to their replies.

My solution was to turn their spam option off and let my anti virus/anti spam software sort it all out. It's been much better since.

I think some publicity on the issue might do Xtra some good. They might actually give some intelligent responses to customers concerns.

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freakalad

231 posts

Master Geek

#217963 26-May-2009 12:02

Honestly, I don't think that it's really such a bad thing for an xSP to take pro-active action in combating spam, hats-off to them, but the rub comes from the fact that these changes have not been communicated very well to their customers-base, and the fact that they are denying all knowledge or involvement in the matter is just a bit irresponsible.

It wouldn't have been such a huge headache if they actually conformed to RFC standards; posting a response back in the SMTP transaction that the message has been flagged as spam, or at leas give me a timely NDR back, so that I can take appropriate action, such as trying delivery by a different route, or letting the recipient know that their purchase order form (or some such) has been delivered but caught by their ISP, and would they mind terribly not threatening me with legal action for something that is not my fault (you get the idea).

Expecting the senders & intended recipients to to do your job, just because you couldn't be bothered, is not a solution...

FLOSS'er, aspiring Maker

stevenz

2802 posts

Uber Geek

#218154 26-May-2009 21:55

Maybe they should have a chat to Google about their spam filter as it seems to be remarkably effective and accurate.

This thread does explain some of the issues our users have had trying to communicate with Xtra users. I'll get them to pass it on to the clients and maybe one of them will have a big enough stick to shake :)