mobile spectrum

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188 posts

Master Geek

#411752 1-Dec-2010 20:33

sbiddle:

One thing that really annoys me about NZ is that people seem to think we have terrible mobile networks. Travel overseas and you'll really appreciate how fantastic it is to have two nationwide 3G networks that both do deliver good performance. Try visiting the UK where you're stuck with GSM in many areas and even then if you're unlucky you'll be stuck on a site using the HR codec to increase voice capacity.

In Italy we use to joke which one of the two stations we're connected to now

It's sometimes quite surprisingly how carriers take different approach how to build a network. There are small and medium sized countries where the networks are excellent, 3G coverage in areas where hardly any people live but the alone hiker may benefit from the services. Then some big countries build networks with huge gaps. With a few months NZ travelling experience and looking at the maps, NZ seems to drop somewhere in between.

When we chose the GSM carrier for our start-up company back in 1994 (remember Nokia 2110?), we had two options. One was building a nationwide coverage fast and the other one was building better coverage but slower. The first one worked only outside our office, the latter worked inside as well.

PS. It would have made sense for whoever-is-in-charge-of-frequenzies-in-NZ to put Telecom XT on the 900 Mhz band as well.

sbiddle

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#411756 1-Dec-2010 20:42

ojala: PS. It would have made sense for whoever-is-in-charge-of-frequenzies-in-NZ to put Telecom XT on the 900 Mhz band as well.

Telecom didn't own any MR's to 900 spectrum so were unable to do this. NZ originally split the 900 band into 3 blocks (TACS A/B/C) and maintained this for GSM unlike some other countries that crammed more networks into the band.

IMHO the whole 850/900 thing becomes a moot point with multi band chipsets now commonplace.

When we chose the GSM carrier for our start-up company back in 1994 (remember Nokia 2110?), we had two options. One was building a nationwide coverage fast and the other one was building better coverage but slower. The first one worked only outside our office, the latter worked inside as well.

Nokia 2010 was the first!

I've got a 2010, 2012 and 2110 and 2110i's here somewhere.

ojala

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Master Geek

#411772 1-Dec-2010 21:23

sbiddle:

IMHO the whole 850/900 thing becomes a moot point with multi band chipsets now commonplace.

True but the carriers can play games by offering phones that don't do both 850 and 900 3G.

While many phones do 850 & 900 GSM the number of phones that do 850 & 900 3G is still quite small. That will change by time, of course.

Nokia 2010 was the first! I've got a 2010, 2012 and 2110 and 2110i's here somewhere.

You forgot 1011! ;-)

I don't remember ever having the 2010. www.nokiamuseum.com tells why, it was announced a year later than 2110 and was a cheaper & bigger model. 2110 was probably the longest GSM workhorse I've ever had (during 2010 I've gone from iPhone 3GS -> Nexus One -> 3GS -> iPhone 4 -> Nokia C5 -> ZTE Blade).

We had the pleasure of having NMT-900 network while waiting for decent sized GSM phones. 2110 was the first match, before that I used the ~500g Nokia 1011 GSM phone (the first!) for traveling and while at home, carried a Mobira Cityman 300 if I remember correctly. It was a sister model to the Nokia 101 but in black instead of dark grey, choosing mobile phone by design started early! That was half-sized compared to the 1011 GSM phone.

That '92 Nokia 101 was 170 x 57 x 27 mm and 280g and today HTC Desire Z is 119 x 60 x 14 mm and 180g. I guess our pocket size hasn't changed much!

matisyahu

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#411786 1-Dec-2010 21:43

sbiddle:
kawaii: I'm in Silverstream and the 900Mhz 3G Broadband is barely registering on the coverage map of Vodafone - in all due respects Vodafone coverage is horrible:

Vodafone haven't deployed 900Mhz 3G in metropolitan areas yet so you shouldn't be expecting 900MHz 3G coverage. The closest site to you is Pakuratahi north of Upper Hutt.

Which is kind of shonky because the 2G and 2.5G is horrible at best and 3G is just as bad where as with XT Network I've got a good signal and hitting 300KBs without a problem versus Vodafone where I'd be stuck using 2.5G if I'm lucky.

Yet when I'm using the XT Network I get great 3G coverage whether using 850 or 2100Mhz - and it keeps holding a HSDPA connection even when I'm stuck travelling from Silverstream to Wellington in a metal tube on wheels (train). In all due respects it is a cop out by Vodafone and their under investment - I'm not stuck in the 'sticks' or some rural backwater, I'm 30km from Wellington, and I'm stuck half way between Upper Hutt and Lower Hutt so there absolutely no reason why Vodafone cannot deliver service parity to Telecom (the company people love to hate).

The key difference is that 2100MHz doesn't go well through a metal tube. Odds are you'll never actually be using the 2100MHz XT sites anywhere along your journey because there are only a couple and you will never hand up from 850Mhz to 2100MHz (which I think is still broken anyway), only from 2100Mhz down to 850Mhz.

But like I said, I'm still in 3G mode, still connected at HSDPA and still surfing at a decent speed versus Vodafone where there is a drop to 2G and the speed drops like a stone. You're getting fixated on the frequencies, I don't care about frequencies, what I care about is being connected at 3G/HSDPA and XT does it and Vodafone fails to maintain a 3G/HSDPA connection into Wellington.

From Silverstream to Wellington on Vodafone you'll pass through the following Vodafone sites - Silverstream Railway Stn, Silverstream Retreat, Haywards, Taita Railway Stn, possibly the Avalon Studios, Naenae, possibly Boulcott, Waterloo Railway Stn, Woburn, possibly Moera, Ava, Hutt Rd Petone, Cornish St, Hutt Rd SH2, Ngauranga, Kaiwharawara, Railyards and then the Stadium. If you walked the track I'd probably put some beers on the fact you would find that outdoor signal strength that entire journey was probably a maximum of -95 dBm and that the only 'deadspot' is a low signal area south of Ngauranga as you go through the tunnels (that also regularly drops on 2d and XT also) and an occasional handover issue between the Ava and Hutt Rd sites.

On Telecom you'll pass roughly half the number of sites because Telecom don't need the same number of sites to deliver inbuilding coverage with 850MHz. Vodafone haven't underinvested - it's just a fundamental problem that 2100MHz signals struggle to go through tissue paper, let along a metal tube.

Then why haven't Vodafone deployed more 900Mhz towers? if the problem is so blindly obvious then why hasn't it been addressed? If they had 900/2100 towers nation wide I wouldn't even be having this discussion, I'd be sitting on a train getting HSDPA all the way in without any problems. The cold hard reality is that Vodafone fails to deliver - for all the promises and all the whining about Telecom they've failed to actually deliver a decent level of coverage that I can receive with Telecom. I'm not 'Telecom fan' nor do I work for them but I know something that works when I see it and XT Network works and Vodafone fails miserably from where I live - and worse still Vodafone representatives deny there is a problem! I swear I want to grab one of these reps by the neck and take them out to Silverstream so they can see the rip-rawing speed I get out here.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

sbiddle

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#411795 1-Dec-2010 21:53

The reason 900 3G dosn't exist in metroplitan areas is because the rollout hasn't started. Simple as that. It will happen but a small issue exists right now that causes an issue - an existing 900 GSM network. This means that in metropolitan areas where frequency reuse is at it's highest and spectrum is scarce that deploying two networks side by side requires careful spectrum management. Vodafone can't just go and shut down parts of it's existing network like Telecom are firstly with EVDO now and secondly with the whole CDMA network in 2012.

While a PDP context is up in 3G mode it should not drop back to GSM mode and hasn't done for several months unless the signal drops down below (in my tests) around -110dBm. In the real world this means that once you have an active 3G data session it will not drop to GSM. If you don't have a PDP context then the phone will switch to GSM as it's the norm on most networks to allow voice traffic to use GSM (or even force it to GSM) to save 3G capacity for data.

The issue is solely one of frequency. You need to understand about frequencies because it is the cause of the problem. If that reflects badly on Vodafone then so be it - but it's not an issue of a poorly constructed network.

coffeebaron

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#411803 1-Dec-2010 22:14

I have the answer - Vodafone should turn off GSM tomorrow, problem solved, plenty of 900 for 3G :)
(yes, I'm not serious)

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richms

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#411814 1-Dec-2010 22:24

coffeebaron: I have the answer - Vodafone should turn off GSM tomorrow, problem solved, plenty of 900 for 3G :)
(yes, I'm not serious)

I dont think that you are too far off what they should do...

But instead they have committed to providing the service for another 10 years. Insane.

They should in the very near future stop selling GSM only handsets and start to get 900MHz 3g into urban areas, because without it they are not a viable carrier for smartphones. Even edge to fall back on would be a welcome addition since that is all that makes 2 degrees workable for light mobile data use.

The 2730 is a pretty low spec handset that does 3g on 900, IMO that is the lowest spec handset that should be sold. Leave the $50 samsung junk at the supermarket for 2 degrees who seem to want to pick up all the low spend customers.

As it is, its a total waste of time getting a phone with 900MHz 3g on it if you use vodafone unless you live in the whopwhops. Thats really gotta change.

Richard rich.ms

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quickymart

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#411854 1-Dec-2010 23:51

2G coverage is better than 3G - it goes a lot further, from my experience. That's probably one of the reasons they haven't turned it off. Not everyone uses their network for data.

hamish225

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#411857 1-Dec-2010 23:53

coffeebaron: I have the answer - Vodafone should turn off GSM tomorrow, problem solved, plenty of 900 for 3G :)
(yes, I'm not serious)

why are Vodafone holding onto old technology?

whats stopping them from gradualy migrating parts of their network to 100% 3G?

*Insert big spe*dtest result here*

richms

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#411863 2-Dec-2010 00:06

hamish225:
coffeebaron: I have the answer - Vodafone should turn off GSM tomorrow, problem solved, plenty of 900 for 3G :)
(yes, I'm not serious)

why are?Vodafone?holding onto old?technology? ?

whats stopping them from gradualy migrating parts of their network to 100% 3G??

The fact they still sell phones that are unable to use any of their 3g network at all.

One good thing if they stopped with GSM, the end of all that dual sim junk that is flooding trademe ;)

Richard rich.ms

johnr

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#411864 2-Dec-2010 00:06

quickymart: 2G coverage is better than 3G - it goes a lot further, from my experience. That's probably one of the reasons they haven't turned it off. Not everyone uses their network for data.

UMTS900 goes a a lot further than GSM900 this is why Vodafone provide marine coverage on the U900 band now

UMTS900 is code based GSM900 is time based

John

richms

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#411865 2-Dec-2010 00:08

quickymart: 2G coverage is better than 3G - it goes a lot further, from my experience. That's probably one of the reasons they haven't turned it off. Not everyone uses their network for data.

Thats not my experiance at all when out in the boonies where they have a 900MHz and telecoms 850MHz network are. Great 3g performance on both of them. We are lucky in that respect with 2 decent rural 3g networks, but we only have 1 decent urban one, a half decent one and a 1/3rd decent one.

Richard rich.ms

ojala

188 posts

Master Geek

#411869 2-Dec-2010 00:23

hamish225:
why are Vodafone holding onto old technology?

whats stopping them from gradualy migrating parts of their network to 100% 3G?

Plenty of M2M and other non-consumer users?

I don't know about NZ but here a number of services use GSM/GPRS; taxi tracking/booking, car engine heaters (for winter, sort-or remote control through mobile network), home, summer house and property alarm systems, cargo and truck tracking systems, credit/debit card terminals, tracking for public transport, etc. http://transport.wspgroup.fi/hklkartta/defaultEn.aspx you can track the trams in real-time.

Frequency and channel planning and coordination shouldn't be such a big deal, the 900 Mhz competition isn't that tough in NZ.

johnr

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#411870 2-Dec-2010 00:26

coffeebaron: I have the answer - Vodafone should turn off GSM tomorrow, problem solved, plenty of 900 for 3G :)
(yes, I'm not serious)

Think of all the inbound roamers coming into NZ using the 2G network

richms

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#411873 2-Dec-2010 00:51

johnr:
coffeebaron: I have the answer - Vodafone should turn off GSM tomorrow, problem solved, plenty of 900 for 3G :)
(yes, I'm not serious)

Think of all the inbound roamers coming into NZ using the 2G network

Japan seems to get on OK with inbound roamers while not having GSM available.

Richard rich.ms

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