Is Windows 10 the next great Mac OS?

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#1222021 25-Jan-2015 20:13

Here is my, admittedly cynical, view of the two companies.

Microsoft : Products developed by computer geeks who have no idea how ordinary people use computers, and who refuse to address faults in their product due to their defensive attitude.

Apple : Products influenced by marketing gurus who insist on thrusting an increasing number of useless features on consumers at the expense of putting resourcing into fixing faults in their product.

In my view both of these lumbering giants are miserably under performing and Google has a huge captive opportunity.

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#1222023 25-Jan-2015 20:17

alasta: Here is my, admittedly cynical, view of the two companies.

Microsoft : Products developed by computer geeks who have no idea how ordinary people use computers, and who refuse to address faults in their product due to their defensive attitude.

Apple : Products influenced by marketing gurus who insist on thrusting an increasing number of useless features on consumers at the expense of putting resourcing into fixing faults in their product.

In my view both of these lumbering giants are miserably under performing and Google has a huge captive opportunity.

Agree in general, but I believe that MSFT is changing, the new CEO is doing a good job transforming the company. Apple is regressing and getting sloppy

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#1222029 25-Jan-2015 20:27

KiwiNZ:
alasta: Here is my, admittedly cynical, view of the two companies.

Microsoft : Products developed by computer geeks who have no idea how ordinary people use computers, and who refuse to address faults in their product due to their defensive attitude.

Apple : Products influenced by marketing gurus who insist on thrusting an increasing number of useless features on consumers at the expense of putting resourcing into fixing faults in their product.

In my view both of these lumbering giants are miserably under performing and Google has a huge captive opportunity.

Agree in general, but I believe that MSFT is changing, the new CEO is doing a good job transforming the company. Apple is regressing and getting sloppy

I also feel Satya Nadella is the driving force. Ive used Windows for years, 7 is absolutely fine, its good. W10 looks great. I don't really see the anti-Yosemite issues myself. Its flatter, I got used to that in an hour. Continuity etc is great. Ive not had much at all in the way of bugs and issues, so for me, its the same as Mavericks, with some extra niceties.

Tinshed

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#1222035 25-Jan-2015 20:44

gehenna:
Tinshed: It is a very good OS, but not an outstanding one. OSX is.

We can't possibly make that judgement until it's out of beta and release candidate phases and into production.

I guess another part of what keeps me in OS X is the quality of design, both aesthetic and usability, that goes into a lot of the main Mac apps that I use. Windows really needs to enforce a standardised design scheme that all app developers can use to create beautiful apps. I think a lot of developers are getting around that nowadays by creating browser based applications, but it does need to happen on the desktop itself.

If they do that then Microsoft also needs to follow their own design guide...as too many of their own apps are so different to use from each other that it makes things very confusing.

I agree that it is difficult to judge without seeing the 'production' version of Windows 10. My point was that the legacy of Windows past will prevent the latest version from being a widespread success and one that can compete with OSX for its 'wow' factor.. Take for example the Open/File dialog in Windows. How confusing is that? Some apps have "Recent Places", some do not, some force you to navigate folder structures to the nth degree. The DOS file legacy is a big drawback with Windows. I was amazed in OSX that I could not only rename a file while open in Preview, I could move it to another folder at the same time. There is no no way Windows can do that.

And the integration of OSX with mobile devices is unparalleled. Yes, they need to be Apple devices but once within the walled garden, the experience is unparalleled. This is important because of the increasing use of 'mobile' devices. These are now ubiquitous and Apple has grasped this much earlier than Microsoft. Seriously, who would buy a Windows mobile device today?

As I said originally, I use Windows every day at work and are 'satisfied' with it. Windows is a very mature platform by now and the basics work well enough. But OSX/Apple and its integration across multiple platforms and consistent UI will win the day. I know we are all advocates for our platform of choice, but here is a question: if you had a $1000 to invest in shares, who would you invest in? Microsoft, Google or Apple?

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#1222036 25-Jan-2015 20:47

Tinshed:
gehenna:
Tinshed: It is a very good OS, but not an outstanding one. OSX is.

We can't possibly make that judgement until it's out of beta and release candidate phases and into production.

I guess another part of what keeps me in OS X is the quality of design, both aesthetic and usability, that goes into a lot of the main Mac apps that I use. Windows really needs to enforce a standardised design scheme that all app developers can use to create beautiful apps. I think a lot of developers are getting around that nowadays by creating browser based applications, but it does need to happen on the desktop itself.

If they do that then Microsoft also needs to follow their own design guide...as too many of their own apps are so different to use from each other that it makes things very confusing.

I agree that it is difficult to judge without seeing the 'production' version of Windows 10. My point was that the legacy of Windows past will prevent the latest version from being a widespread success and one that can compete with OSX for its 'wow' factor.. Take for example the Open/File dialog in Windows. How confusing is that? Some apps have "Recent Places", some do not, some force you to navigate folder structures to the nth degree. The DOS file legacy is a big drawback with Windows. I was amazed in OSX that I could not only rename a file while open in Preview, I could move it to another folder at the same time. There is no no way Windows can do that.

And the integration of OSX with mobile devices is unparalleled. Yes, they need to be Apple devices but once within the walled garden, the experience is unparalleled. This is important because of the increasing use of 'mobile' devices. These are now ubiquitous and Apple has grasped this much earlier than Microsoft. Seriously, who would buy a Windows mobile device today?

As I said originally, I use Windows every day at work and are 'satisfied' with it. Windows is a very mature platform by now and the basics work well enough. But OSX/Apple and its integration across multiple platforms and consistent UI will win the day. I know we are all advocates for our platform of choice, but here is a question: if you had a $1000 to invest in shares, who would you invest in? Microsoft, Google or Apple?

Who would I invest in? Microsoft there is better scope for capital gain.

tdgeek

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#1222038 25-Jan-2015 20:51

Tinshed:

And the integration of OSX with mobile devices is unparalleled. Yes, they need to be Apple devices but once within the walled garden, the experience is unparalleled. This is important because of the increasing use of 'mobile' devices. These are now ubiquitous and Apple has grasped this much earlier than Microsoft. Seriously, who would buy a Windows mobile device today?

The integration that W10 is bringing will make Windows mobile well integrated, thats a plus. But they need buy in for the app store, thats a biggie. AS regards the phone hardware and the OS they are good as gold

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#1222042 25-Jan-2015 21:04

My concern Is there is still a lot of legacy stuff inside Windows 10 that simply doesn't make sense, DPI scaling and display color profiles are still a huge hassle for me every day, I really don't think these will be changed or fixed in this release - really hope they are though.

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#1222055 25-Jan-2015 21:11

macuser: My concern Is there is still a lot of legacy stuff inside Windows 10 that simply doesn't make sense, DPI scaling and display color profiles are still a huge hassle for me every day, I really don't think these will be changed or fixed in this release - really hope they are though.

There is no known legacy stuff in Windows 10, it's not released yet. There maybe some in the pre-beta something you see in all early OS builds be it Windows, Linux or OSX

matisyahu

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#1222156 25-Jan-2015 23:47

KiwiNZ:
alasta: Here is my, admittedly cynical, view of the two companies.

Microsoft : Products developed by computer geeks who have no idea how ordinary people use computers, and who refuse to address faults in their product due to their defensive attitude.

Apple : Products influenced by marketing gurus who insist on thrusting an increasing number of useless features on consumers at the expense of putting resourcing into fixing faults in their product.

In my view both of these lumbering giants are miserably under performing and Google has a huge captive opportunity.

Agree in general, but I believe that MSFT is changing, the new CEO is doing a good job transforming the company. Apple is regressing and getting sloppy

It is interesting if you look at Microsoft over the last few years because they seem to have done exactly what Apple did 18 years ago when Steve Jobs came back - they've slimmed down their product and service line up, anyone remember way back when Microsoft entered the world of online services and they tried to be everything to everyone? jump forward to today and their service offering is very slim but very focused, they aren't trying to take on Youtube, they aren't trying to take on Facebook or any of the established players but instead carving out a niche and working with others resulting in a much better online experience over all. Then there is the work that was done in Windows Vista in terms of the under the hood changes which led the way into Windows 7 then the development of WinRT API introduced in Windows 8.1 which has resulted in a consolidation of Windows around a single core and shared components from the desktop to the laptop down to the tablet and phone. There is this hunger at Microsoft to want to win - the first great thing they did was get rid of the stack ranking system which probably meant that all those who were 'playing the system' rather than being productive were quickly pushed along and now Microsoft has now got engineers who are interested in getting the results rather than gaming the system and getting to the top. If employees are feeling better about the place they work then the output being produced will reflect that - happy workers are productive workers.

Compare that to Apple which seems to be going in all manner of directions trying to jump onto the next fad - the Apple Watch, the splintered iPad line up, the iMac 5K with the underpowered over worked GPU, the constant shuffling developers from one project to the next one then back again resulting a disjointed development resulting in stupid errors, updates that break things, faults and regressions etc. the lack of RAM in the iPhone resulting in me sitting here with a modest number of tabs open and having to wait till for the tab to refresh when I switch between them not to mention the laundry list of pretty important things, such as the file system, that has been more or less ignored for years. I've got a MacBook Pro now but for my desktop I'm growing weary of the idea of getting an iMac and I don't have the cash for a Mac Pro. I'm tempted to grab a Dell XPS 8700 (I'd assume when they refresh it they will rename it the 8800 or something like that) which is good enough grunt for what I need without the price tag that comes with purchasing an iMac.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

matisyahu

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#1222186 26-Jan-2015 03:28

Tinshed:
gehenna:
Tinshed: It is a very good OS, but not an outstanding one. OSX is.

We can't possibly make that judgement until it's out of beta and release candidate phases and into production.

I guess another part of what keeps me in OS X is the quality of design, both aesthetic and usability, that goes into a lot of the main Mac apps that I use. Windows really needs to enforce a standardised design scheme that all app developers can use to create beautiful apps. I think a lot of developers are getting around that nowadays by creating browser based applications, but it does need to happen on the desktop itself.

If they do that then Microsoft also needs to follow their own design guide...as too many of their own apps are so different to use from each other that it makes things very confusing.

I agree that it is difficult to judge without seeing the 'production' version of Windows 10. My point was that the legacy of Windows past will prevent the latest version from being a widespread success and one that can compete with OSX for its 'wow' factor.. Take for example the Open/File dialog in Windows. How confusing is that? Some apps have "Recent Places", some do not, some force you to navigate folder structures to the nth degree. The DOS file legacy is a big drawback with Windows. I was amazed in OSX that I could not only rename a file while open in Preview, I could move it to another folder at the same time. There is no no way Windows can do that.

And the integration of OSX with mobile devices is unparalleled. Yes, they need to be Apple devices but once within the walled garden, the experience is unparalleled. This is important because of the increasing use of 'mobile' devices. These are now ubiquitous and Apple has grasped this much earlier than Microsoft. Seriously, who would buy a Windows mobile device today?

As I said originally, I use Windows every day at work and are 'satisfied' with it. Windows is a very mature platform by now and the basics work well enough. But OSX/Apple and its integration across multiple platforms and consistent UI will win the day. I know we are all advocates for our platform of choice, but here is a question: if you had a $1000 to invest in shares, who would you invest in? Microsoft, Google or Apple?

In fairness though you still have disjointedness between Carbon and Cocoa applications in some places then you have the likes of Adobe who insist on having their own dialogue boxes that go against the grain resulting in a Frankenstein GUI that ends up not looking all that pleasant - then throw in some Qt applications that have been ported from the KDE environment such as Kid3, my favourite music tag editor, which stands out like a sore thumb not to mention the years of the iTunes developers insisting they were the vanguard of GUI design in Apple.

Putting that side for a moment though, there is always going to end up being a bit of a mess in the case of Windows given that they are hauling 30+ years of legacy around with them and there are software vendors who insistent on not upgrading their code and Microsoft for better or worse wishes to move forward whilst maintaining that backwards compatibility that enterprise customers love so dearly whilst trying to have something resembling a coherent product. For me, I can deal with inconsistency between third party applications because it isn't as though Microsoft can force these third parties to upgrade their code and use the new stuff but at least what I see in Windows 10 is an attempt by Microsoft to walk the talk when it comes to delivering a consistent user interface. If Windows 10 delivers a consistent user experience with all the bundled applications and then that experience flows back through their middleware then hopefully that should set the standard that third parties will aspire towards.

In the realm of speculation I'd say that the new touch based Microsoft Office is the beginning of eventually seeing Microsoft Office being turned into a universal application so that one day we don't have a 'touch' or a 'mouse and keyboard' based one but a single version based on WinRT that integrates in with Windows 10 and the backend services that Microsoft provides. It appears that after all these years Microsoft I think has finally 'got it'.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

macuser

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#1222251 26-Jan-2015 09:43

KiwiNZ:
macuser: My concern Is there is still a lot of legacy stuff inside Windows 10 that simply doesn't make sense, DPI scaling and display color profiles are still a huge hassle for me every day, I really don't think these will be changed or fixed in this release - really hope they are though.

There is no known legacy stuff in Windows 10, it's not released yet. There maybe some in the pre-beta something you see in all early OS builds be it Windows, Linux or OSX

There is no way they're going to have all of the Windows 7 or earlier stuff rebuilt or at least re-jigged for the release.

And if they do manage to get it changed... I'll be stoked, but I don't see it happening.

Windows 8 had it, Windows 10 will too.

matisyahu

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#1222476 26-Jan-2015 15:53

macuser:
KiwiNZ:
macuser: My concern Is there is still a lot of legacy stuff inside Windows 10 that simply doesn't make sense, DPI scaling and display color profiles are still a huge hassle for me every day, I really don't think these will be changed or fixed in this release - really hope they are though.

There is no known legacy stuff in Windows 10, it's not released yet. There maybe some in the pre-beta something you see in all early OS builds be it Windows, Linux or OSX

There is no way they're going to have all of the Windows 7 or earlier stuff rebuilt or at least re-jigged for the release.

And if they do manage to get it changed... I'll be stoked, but I don't see it happening.

Windows 8 had it, Windows 10 will too.

The WinRT Framework plus tweaks have addressed many of the issues you originally laid out but the question is whether third parties are going to take advantage of those changes of whether they just sit on their code and pointing the finger at Microsoft. Changes are being made under the hood, there was a good post made by a Microsoft engineer who is working on the audio capabilities of Windows 10 and they've done a lot of work - but once again, are third parties going to take advantage of that or just ignore it as so many of them usually do.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

MikeB4

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#1222553 26-Jan-2015 16:54

macuser:
KiwiNZ:
macuser: My concern Is there is still a lot of legacy stuff inside Windows 10 that simply doesn't make sense, DPI scaling and display color profiles are still a huge hassle for me every day, I really don't think these will be changed or fixed in this release - really hope they are though.

There is no known legacy stuff in Windows 10, it's not released yet. There maybe some in the pre-beta something you see in all early OS builds be it Windows, Linux or OSX

There is no way they're going to have all of the Windows 7 or earlier stuff rebuilt or at least re-jigged for the release.

And if they do manage to get it changed... I'll be stoked, but I don't see it happening.

Windows 8 had it, Windows 10 will too.

Windows, Linux, OSX, Android..... all have legacy stuff in it. If it didn't only the very latest Hardware and software would work.

aboylikedave

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#1227328 1-Feb-2015 21:32

If Sharepoint is anything to go by god help Microsoft's future in online services. It's 'orrible. My partner is using Office 365 at work, its built on sharepoint and she is really struggling with it.

I actually think the upgraded iPhoto due later this year will be a good indicator of whether Apple are losing it as far as realy good useability design goes.

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#1227333 1-Feb-2015 21:42

aboylikedave: If Sharepoint is anything to go by god help Microsoft's future in online services. It's 'orrible. My partner is using Office 365 at work, its built on sharepoint and she is really struggling with it.

I actually think the upgraded iPhoto due later this year will be a good indicator of whether Apple are losing it as far as realy good useability design goes.

Is that a fair comparison?

In windows, you choose from a large range of software, lots of choice. But your comparing that to Applesone default, built in app.

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