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Dingbatt
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  #2618754 9-Dec-2020 15:43
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There was an interesting article in Stuff (reprinted from Newsroom) Overseas doubts grow over NZ’s climate commitment (9 Dec 20). It talks  about NZ’s allies not being pleased with our progress on emissions. It compared 1990 levels with today’s, screeching that NZ was 50% above its emissions from 30 years ago and showed other first world countries had net reductions. It didn’t point out that NZ’s population had increased by a large amount over that period, as had its ruminant dairy herd. At no time did it compare emissions on a ‘per capita’ basis.

 

The biggest impact though, is on the choice of starting point. It is likely that much of NZ’s non-transport energy use in 1990 came from renewable sources (hydro and geo-thermal) and natural gas used for heating, so we started from a low point (comparatively). The exceptions being coal-fired power stations like Huntly and Otahuhu. Other ‘developed’ nations that sourced much of their energy from coal started from a high point, and as such, renewables have had a bigger impact by reducing high-carbon energy source use. Even the switch from coal to natural gas produces a net positive.

 

If NZ’s way progress towards our goals is plotted using metrics such as those in the above article, we are doomed to never being able to achieve them.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996




BlinkyBill
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  #2618781 9-Dec-2020 15:59
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That argument is like saying “you’re saying I’m filling up the box too quickly, when it’s because I have more people filling up the box”.

 

The point is that the box is too full, never mind how it got there.

 

The point of all of this is, in order to stop filling up the box - we have to stop filling up the box - by doing things that don’t fill up the box. If we have more people, we need to change things.


Dingbatt
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  #2618793 9-Dec-2020 16:17
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BlinkyBill:

 

That argument is like saying “you’re saying I’m filling up the box too quickly, when it’s because I have more people filling up the box”.

 

The point is that the box is too full, never mind how it got there.

 

The point of all of this is, in order to stop filling up the box - we have to stop filling up the box - by doing things that don’t fill up the box. If we have more people, we need to change things.

 

 

No, my main point was there was no reference to what the start point was. Australia is probably the nearest comparison to us with similar population growth. The difference being they were probably the exact opposite to us in 1990 when it comes to the fossil-fuel/renewable balance of their grid. To look at the graphs as presented it shows Australia doing wonderfully well compared to us. But we know that isn’t the case because their grid is still mainly coal powered.

 

I realise I shouldn’t have mentioned the population increase because it just allowed for a straw man (or should that be sandman) argument.

 

Edit: How would you suggest we cope with the increased population?





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996




networkn
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  #2618805 9-Dec-2020 16:39
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Dingbatt:

 

Edit: How would you suggest we cope with the increased population?

 

 

That's easy, ban the use of Single Use PPE :)

 

 


BlinkyBill
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  #2618816 9-Dec-2020 16:53
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Dingbatt:

 

No, my main point was there was no reference to what the start point was. ...

 

 

Unfortunately, start point doesn’t matter, because it’s the *net* increase that is the point.

 

The point of the article you reference is we pledged to cap emission increases, and we have not achieved that goal. And we haven’t achieved it because we haven’t taken the initiatives to do so, and have no clear plans to do so.


Dingbatt
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  #2618827 9-Dec-2020 17:23
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Then might I suggest everyone that believes it is an emergency should immediately take their emissions to zero. Because when you start from a low it is difficult to make meaningful change.

 

Declaring everything an emergency just diminishes the impact of the word.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


BlinkyBill
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  #2618829 9-Dec-2020 17:32
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Dingbatt:

 

Then might I suggest everyone that believes it is an emergency should immediately take their emissions to zero. Because when you start from a low it is difficult to make meaningful change.

 

Declaring everything an emergency just diminishes the impact of the word.

 

 

That is the declared objective for 2050. You’ve got it.

 

The point of declaring an emergency is to provide focus and drive action. And it now doesn’t apply just to those who believe there is an emergency... on yours and everyone else’s behalf the Govt will now drive to the objective and outcome.

 

Not sure what else has been declared as an emergency that isn’t a immediate one.


 
 
 
 

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MikeB4
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  #2618831 9-Dec-2020 17:44
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instead of getting all hung up on a couple of words how concentrating what is needed to be done.


tdgeek
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  #2618838 9-Dec-2020 19:00
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At least there was no "we are too small to make a difference" Line up an American, a German, a Fin, a Kiwi. All the same and the same difference. We can land on an asteroid or comet, take a sample and bring it back. Then we rant on about colonising Mars. How many people here let their house rot? None. How many plan to let their house rot, then move out and buy a new one? None. But that's the apparent plan here. Its a pity that there is no technology available to make a difference on our own "house"  /S


Geektastic
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  #2618945 9-Dec-2020 20:56
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tdgeek:

At least there was no "we are too small to make a difference" Line up an American, a German, a Fin, a Kiwi. All the same and the same difference. We can land on an asteroid or comet, take a sample and bring it back. Then we rant on about colonising Mars. How many people here let their house rot? None. How many plan to let their house rot, then move out and buy a new one? None. But that's the apparent plan here. Its a pity that there is no technology available to make a difference on our own "house"  /S



You can’t sell your house to move if you do that. We are too small. Even if we got to less than zero, 5 million at less than zero will be lost in the smog of a billion in China or India.

We’d make more impact helping them find solutions than we ever would implementing them ourselves.





Dingbatt
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  #2618963 9-Dec-2020 21:42
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Or you could sit in the corner of one room of your rotting house, with the lights off and no heating, surrounded by no worldly goods having given them all away to a person who convinced you that they could fix your rotting house by putting slightly less jelly on one of the weatherboards. You do have a PV panel on the roof, but it’s night time.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


tdgeek
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  #2619052 10-Dec-2020 07:13
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Geektastic: You can’t sell your house to move if you do that. We are too small. Even if we got to less than zero, 5 million at less than zero will be lost in the smog of a billion in China or India.

We’d make more impact helping them find solutions than we ever would implementing them ourselves.

 

Course you can sell your house, for bugger all, same as if we placed Earth where we cant live here and moved, again, a big loss

 

The 5 million argument doesnt wash. The same applies to a city or group of towns in another country that is also 5 million. The short story is you want climate change solved but you don't want to put yourself out, you;d rather a) be in denial or b) make excuses to excuse yourself 


tdgeek
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  #2619053 10-Dec-2020 07:15
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Dingbatt:

 

Or you could sit in the corner of one room of your rotting house, with the lights off and no heating, surrounded by no worldly goods having given them all away to a person who convinced you that they could fix your rotting house by putting slightly less jelly on one of the weatherboards. You do have a PV panel on the roof, but it’s night time.

 

 

Thats a good analogy for where Earth is going, we will all be crammed in a corner with no heating no power and no food


frankv
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  #2619073 10-Dec-2020 08:12
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tdgeek:

 

Dingbatt:

 

Or you could sit in the corner of one room of your rotting house, with the lights off and no heating, surrounded by no worldly goods having given them all away to a person who convinced you that they could fix your rotting house by putting slightly less jelly on one of the weatherboards. You do have a PV panel on the roof, but it’s night time.

 

 

Thats a good analogy for where Earth is going, we will all be crammed in a corner with no heating no power and no food

 

 

Na, terrible analogy. We have more than enough food and energy to live on comfortably. However a large amount is being wasted, with some people having a carbon footprint the size of a town.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2619076 10-Dec-2020 08:16
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frankv:

 

Na, terrible analogy. We have more than enough food and energy to live on comfortably. However a large amount is being wasted, with some people having a carbon footprint the size of a town.

 

 

 

 

The analogy was based on the rotten house/Earth position, i.e. when climate change has "rotted" earth. There will be far less arable land, and people cramming into a smaller liveable location. Fresh water will be difficult. Need more power for cooling. Hos the hydro? All depends how the weather and thus rainfall changed. Could be dire


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