New Zealand Government to declare a climate emergency

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frankv

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#2635623 14-Jan-2021 16:10

Rikkitic:

... the cost of remedial measures will be immense, forcing most of us to lead a marginal peasant existence for generations and generations while we try to repair the systems that keep us alive.

When things cost a lot, it means that a lot of people are getting paid. Repairing/mitigating environmental damage will be a way for people to get paid (e.g. the people who built the flood defences for New Orleans, the Thames barrier, etc). Money has to move from person to person to have any meaning. And, whilst it is better if it is spent on something productive, that isn't actually very important. For example, we've been spending vast amounts of money on weapons and wars, and the military-industrial complex is a money-spinning cornerstone of the US economy, with *no* real direct economic benefit (although admittedly political and power-and-control benefits). Likewise the Apollo program & NASA in general and professional sports and numerous other things.

If that money was instead spent on fixing climate change, a lot of fixing would happen (but the Commies would take over, or the aliens, or Tiger Woods), but crucially the money would continue to go around. Climate repair isn't a path to destitution, it's the road to riches.

frankv

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#2635624 14-Jan-2021 16:23

tdgeek:

I feel it's worse. Too hot, less places to live and grow crops. Water warms up, sea levels rise, less places to live. Fresh water is scarce. As the Great Water Tunnel slows down, as it will when cold water vs warm water becomes warm water vs warmer water, that disrupts the whole climate. Warm air stops plants sucking in CO2, they then respire it.

Warmer air and oceans means more water vapour in the atmosphere, and more rainfall. So fresh water won't be scarce, it will be abundant. Hence the greening of sub-Saharan Africa due to climate change. What is this "Great Water Tunnel"? Googling doesn't find anything relevant.

I'd also like your reference for "Warm air stops plants sucking in CO2". It seems to me that generally speaking photosynthesis is increased if the plant is warmer. Hence tropical rainforests with huge amounts of transpiration and photosynthesis per hectare and arctic tundra with very little.

tdgeek

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#2635629 14-Jan-2021 16:25

Yes, but spending money to replace coal means you are paying to replace a cheap fuel for a more expensive one.Wasting money on $70,000 EV's when a $45000 ICE equivalent we already do. Or, investing in CO2 sequestering devices, they dont add value to John Smiths existence. Its quite possible that if we globally invested heavily in solar, EV's, that we can tell the citizens that these are cheaper to run, then they will flock to them, "they help climate change too? Oh ok" Cater for the inherent selfishness and they will buy. There is probably a myriad of things we can do, but they can't cost us time or money thats the problem. If sea levels were rising 250mm a year and each two years another crop we have grown forever has to be changed, maybe then we may act. But its slower than that. The payoff of being slow to change is when we decide we HAVE to change, that train left decades ago, bad luck

tdgeek

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#2635632 14-Jan-2021 16:32

frankv:

Warmer air and oceans means more water vapour in the atmosphere, and more rainfall. So fresh water won't be scarce, it will be abundant. Hence the greening of sub-Saharan Africa due to climate change. What is this "Great Water Tunnel"? Googling doesn't find anything relevant.

I'd also like your reference for "Warm air stops plants sucking in CO2". It seems to me that generally speaking photosynthesis is increased if the plant is warmer. Hence tropical rainforests with huge amounts of transpiration and photosynthesis per hectare and arctic tundra with very little.

So will your rainfall grow by 50%? Ask Auckland, and many other places here. It will rain more, most likely heavy rain, floods, wrong time of year, then flash floods. India's monsoon is becoming erratic as we speak.

Sorry, Global Water Conveyor

Plants

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123931638/earths-lungs-could-start-deteriorating-in-as-little-as-two-decades

MikeB4

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#2635633 14-Jan-2021 16:34

In hot weather plants slow down. You can test that at home, find a plant that is wilting and check the soil moisture at just beyond finger tip. Now check the same plant when it cools in the evening without adding water and the plant will be sitting up.

Rikkitic

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#2635637 14-Jan-2021 16:45

frankv:

When things cost a lot, it means that a lot of people are getting paid. Repairing/mitigating environmental damage will be a way for people to get paid (e.g. the people who built the flood defences for New Orleans, the Thames barrier, etc). Money has to move from person to person to have any meaning. And, whilst it is better if it is spent on something productive, that isn't actually very important. For example, we've been spending vast amounts of money on weapons and wars, and the military-industrial complex is a money-spinning cornerstone of the US economy, with *no* real direct economic benefit (although admittedly political and power-and-control benefits). Likewise the Apollo program & NASA in general and professional sports and numerous other things.

If that money was instead spent on fixing climate change, a lot of fixing would happen (but the Commies would take over, or the aliens, or Tiger Woods), but crucially the money would continue to go around. Climate repair isn't a path to destitution, it's the road to riches.

That's a good point but it only works if there is enough productivity to cover everything. If the world is on the verge of starvation due to ecological collapse, there won't be a lot left over to spend on the good life, which brings us back to my peasant economy.

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tdgeek

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#2635647 14-Jan-2021 17:25

MikeB4: In hot weather plants slow down. You can test that at home, find a plant that is wilting and check the soil moisture at just beyond finger tip. Now check the same plant when it cools in the evening without adding water and the plant will be sitting up.

Yep.Same applies if you spray weeds, or foliage spray fertiliser such as liquid seaweed. They shut down to not inhale, to stop drying out. The link I gave went a step further. Ongoing hot weather means they cease inhaling CO2 and exhaling Oxygen, the start emitting CO2. Thats the last thing we need as greenery is the only easy and cheap way to sequester CO2.

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frankv

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#2635980 15-Jan-2021 12:14

tdgeek:

So will your rainfall grow by 50%? Ask Auckland, and many other places here. It will rain more, most likely heavy rain, floods, wrong time of year, then flash floods. India's monsoon is becoming erratic as we speak.

Sorry, Global Water Conveyor

Plants

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123931638/earths-lungs-could-start-deteriorating-in-as-little-as-two-decades

Right. I'm not saying that all this extra rainfall will be good... it will certainly cause other problems. But that won't make fresh water scarce, which is what you asserted.

The Stuff article is typical fear-mongering and pseudoscience. It's full of "might" and "could", which I read as "probably won't".

This gem shows the amount of thought that Stuff put into it: "Combined, oceans and plants stop about half the carbon dioxide people emit from reaching the atmosphere." The briefest of thought shows that is completely wrong. Perhaps what they mean is that oceans and plants absorb about half the carbon dioxide we currently? emit.

And whilst the tropical and Taiga forests may already be at maximal photosynthesis (although even that seems to be speculative) and will therefore decrease as they get warmer, other ecosystems will become more efficient as they get warmer.

Because plants' sole energy source is the sun via photosynthesis, if their respiration rate goes up with rising temperature, as the article *speculates*, to the point where they're respiring more than they're photosynthesizing, then they will die because they're using more energy than they're generating. i.e. their maximum respiration rate is limited by their photosynthesis rate. And, since respiring one Joule creates the same amount of CO2 as photosynthesizing one Joule uses it, plants will *never* "flip" to being a CO2 source. Worst case, some areas will become deserts (but deserts are caused by lack of water, not too much heat). Much more likely is that some plants will die and some other plant species that *can* cope with the higher temperature will grow in their place, and continue to be a CO2 sink.

Yes, climate change will cause massive disruption and destruction. But it isn't all negative, and I'd wager that it won't get as bad as Stuff says it "could" and "might" be. And let's not fight climate change based on that kind of nonsense.

frankv

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#2635989 15-Jan-2021 12:28

MikeB4: In hot weather plants slow down. You can test that at home, find a plant that is wilting and check the soil moisture at just beyond finger tip. Now check the same plant when it cools in the evening without adding water and the plant will be sitting up.

NB that respiring at a higher rate, which is what the article suggested, is a plant speeding up, not slowing down. Photosynthesis, which is a biochemical reaction, will also speed up at higher temperatures.

NB also that wilting is a response to lack of moisture, not excess temperature. Some plant species, such as the ones you have, cannot suck up water fast enough to respire and photosynthesize fully at warmer temperatures.

In cold weather, plants also slow down. This is obvious from the difference in plants between summer & winter. Why do horticulturalists have *hot*houses?

If some plant species slow down or die as the climate gets warmer, other plant species will take over.

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#2688279 8-Apr-2021 11:46

Press release:

The Government is delivering on a key election commitment to tackle climate change, by banning new low and medium temperature coal-fired boilers and partnering with the private sector to help it transition away from fossil fuels.

This is the first major announcement to follow the release of the Climate Commission’s draft package of advice to Government in February.

“Today’s announcements will make a real difference to New Zealand’s emissions profile, and are a significant boost to our clean energy sector, helping us on our path to a cleaner, smarter economy,” Minister of Energy and Resources Megan Woods said.

The ban on new coal boilers used in manufacturing and production will come into effect by 31^st December this year. An option proposed is to also prohibit other new fossil fuel boilers where suitable alternative technology exists and it is economically viable.

The Government is also proposing to phase out existing coal boilers by 2037. In addition, consideration is being given to how to phase out other fossil fuels in existing sites through re-consenting processes and best practice requirements in a National Environment Standard.

“The amount of coal displaced by these proposals equates to about 500,000 tonnes each year. Once the changes are fully in place it will mean the equivalent of between 400,000 to 550,000 cars being removed from our roads in a single year,” Megan Woods said.

Also announced today were the successful applicants in round one of the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund. In total 14 companies will receive $22.88m in co-funding to help their businesses transition away from fossil fuels.

“The decarbonisation fund provides crucial financial support to business and industry to help them switch from boilers run on coal and gas to cleaner electricity and biomass options. This helps create jobs in the clean energy sector, and future-proofs our economy,” said Megan Woods.

“The 14 projectswe’re announcing funding for today will achieve up to 10 percent of the gross long lived emission reductions required from the Climate Commission’s first draft carbon budget for the period 2022-2025 - the same as taking 49,000 cars off the road,” said Megan Woods.

Minister for the Environment David Parker said both the decarbonisation fund and the coal boiler initiatives were helping reduce emissions in the manufacturing and production sector.

“Fuel used in manufacturing and production – known as process heat – generates about eight per cent of New Zealand’s emissions and is the second largest source of energy-related emissions after transport.

“Decarbonising process heat is one of the biggest opportunities for New Zealand to reduce its domestic energy emissions, and will make a significant contribution to New Zealand’s 2050 net zero carbon target,” said David Parker.

Climate Change Minister James Shaw said with today’s announcement, the Government had taken another necessary step on the road towards a low emissions economy for Aotearoa New Zealand.

“By working with industry to switch from burning coal to clean alternatives we are helping to ensure a better, cleaner future for our children and grandchildren,” James Shaw said.

Two of the companies who have received round one funding are McCain Foods and Woolworks both in Timaru.

“McCains and Woolworks are two great examples of businesses that are committed to taking a leadership role on climate change through their uptake of the decarbonisation fund. It’s great to see them embracing clean technology while not compromising on productivity,” Megan Woods said.

The consultation document for the 2037 coal proposals can be found on the Ministry for the Environment website.

frankv

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#2688287 8-Apr-2021 12:07

Megan Woods:

“Once the changes are fully in place it will mean the equivalent of between 400,000 to 550,000 cars being removed from our roads in a single year,” Megan Woods said.

Hmmm... actually it will be equivalent to those cars being removed over a period of 25 years, that being how long until it is fully implemented.

Rikkitic

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#2716292 31-May-2021 18:42

So who still doesn't believe in climate change? Everything that has been predicted seems to be happening, except bigger, sooner, worse.

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tdgeek

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#2716364 31-May-2021 19:28

Rikkitic:

So who still doesn't believe in climate change? Everything that has been predicted seems to be happening, except bigger, sooner, worse.

Warmer days means nothing to most people. Its 10 now tomorrow maybe 18, or 25 who cares about 1.5? Moisture is the more obvious driver. More heat = more atmospheric moisture which falls down. Last year I think it was, the Tasman Sea was very warm. = Weather. They should focus on weather patterns when convincing the masses. More rain, more storms, more volatile weather. If you are in the cyclone/hurricane belt, look out. Those of us that aren't can look out for being on the edge of them more often

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