Police not knowing the rules

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#713742 7-Nov-2012 19:31

johnr:
gregmcc: look at the meaning of the word flow

flow [fləʊ]vb (mainly intr)1. (of liquids) to move or be conveyed as in a stream2. (of blood) to circulate around the body3. to move or progress freely as if in a stream the crowd flowed into the building4. to proceed or be produced continuously and effortlessly ideas flowed from her pen5. to show or be marked by smooth or easy movement6. to hang freely or loosely her hair flowed down her back...edit...n1. the act, rate, or manner of flowing a fast flow2. a continuous stream or discharge3. continuous progression

when the car is stopped like it was in this case there is "no flow".

I agree the cop is wrong.

Very valid points but then does this allow drivers to use mobile phones while stopped at Red lights?

Red lights are normal flow, the question is, is an accident and the resulting stoppage normal?

jeffnz

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#713743 7-Nov-2012 19:31

I also think the thread title is misleading in saying the police are wrong, maybe the op is wrong but in any case no infringement notice has been received so its purely academic. Sitting in the middle of a lane being stopped or not is irrelevant as it could move at any time. My interpretation is that it means you are parked or stopped out of the normal flow of traffic being a lane.

If you get an infringement notice and believe you are in the right then fight it it is your right to do so.

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cisconz

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#713744 7-Nov-2012 19:32

tdgeek:
johnr:
gregmcc: look at the meaning of the word flow

flow [fləʊ]vb (mainly intr)1. (of liquids) to move or be conveyed as in a stream2. (of blood) to circulate around the body3. to move or progress freely as if in a stream the crowd flowed into the building4. to proceed or be produced continuously and effortlessly ideas flowed from her pen5. to show or be marked by smooth or easy movement6. to hang freely or loosely her hair flowed down her back...edit...n1. the act, rate, or manner of flowing a fast flow2. a continuous stream or discharge3. continuous progression

when the car is stopped like it was in this case there is "no flow".

I agree the cop is wrong.

Very valid points but then does this allow drivers to use mobile phones while stopped at Red lights?

Red lights are normal flow, the question is, is an accident and the resulting stoppage normal?

It doesn't matter, that still only allows calls, not texts or anything else which the OP was doing.

Hmmmm

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#713746 7-Nov-2012 19:33

johnr:
gregmcc: look at the meaning of the word flow

flow [fləʊ]vb (mainly intr)1. (of liquids) to move or be conveyed as in a stream2. (of blood) to circulate around the body3. to move or progress freely as if in a stream the crowd flowed into the building4. to proceed or be produced continuously and effortlessly ideas flowed from her pen5. to show or be marked by smooth or easy movement6. to hang freely or loosely her hair flowed down her back...edit...n1. the act, rate, or manner of flowing a fast flow2. a continuous stream or discharge3. continuous progression

when the car is stopped like it was in this case there is "no flow".

I agree the cop is wrong.

Very valid points but then does this allow drivers to use mobile phones while stopped at Red lights?

no becuse the clause says normal stop and starting of traffic. Traffic lights are normal

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#713748 7-Nov-2012 19:36

Well then accidents are part of everyday traffic

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#713750 7-Nov-2012 19:39

johnr: Well then accidents are part of everyday traffic

they might be part of everyday traffic, but not normal

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#713752 7-Nov-2012 19:41

johnr: Well then accidents are part of everyday traffic

So next time you write your vehicle off in an accident, use that excuse in claiming the car was unfit for normal purpose as a vehicle when you take the manufacturer or dealer to the disputes tribunal , see what happens.

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#713753 7-Nov-2012 19:43

tardtasticx:
johnr: Well then accidents are part of everyday traffic

So next time you write your vehicle off in an accident, use that excuse in claiming the car was unfit for normal purpose as a vehicle when you take the manufacturer or dealer to the disputes tribunal , see what happens.

Not at all cause then that would be impact damage!!

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#713754 7-Nov-2012 19:46

johnr:
tardtasticx:
johnr: Well then accidents are part of everyday traffic

So next time you write your vehicle off in an accident, use that excuse in claiming the car was unfit for normal purpose as a vehicle when you take the manufacturer or dealer to the disputes tribunal , see what happens.

Not at all cause then that would be impact damage!!

but you said accidents are normal part of traffic. Impact damage is an accident

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#713756 7-Nov-2012 19:50

tardtasticx:
johnr:
tardtasticx:
johnr: Well then accidents are part of everyday traffic

So next time you write your vehicle off in an accident, use that excuse in claiming the car was unfit for normal purpose as a vehicle when you take the manufacturer or dealer to the disputes tribunal , see what happens.

Not at all cause then that would be impact damage!!
but you said accidents are normal part of traffic. Impact damage is an accident

This has nothing to do with your ticket! You used a mobile phone while in control of a vehicle. As someone has already pointed out you don't have a ticket yet until a ticket shows up this might be a storm in a tea cup!

If the ticket shows up go thru the dispute process and update us after

John

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#713757 7-Nov-2012 19:50

Ok, as an ex-coppa I will have a crack at this one:

If you read the whole section of the rule it clearly states that a driver cannot create, send or read a text message while driving. There are then a few proviso's the last one being that a driver can make or receive a telephone call if stopped for a reason other than normal traffic flow etc...

The OP did not make or receive a telephone call, but received a text which he elected to read. The proviso being relied upon is therefore not applicable to this situation as that only relates to telephone calls. The argument about 'traffic flows' etc are therefore redundant.

The intent of this proviso in any respect was to allow the use of cellphones such as when stuck in a traffic jam where regular movement of the vehicle or attention of the driver is not required. When approaching a crash scene the people at the scene need drivers to pay attention to the hazard situation, and be able to respond to officers directions to move, stop, or whatever. As the OP's picture clearly shows they were right up by the crash scene therefore I would expect a driver to be attentive and not be playing with their cellphone. Managing a crash scene is hard enough without drivers not watching whats going on, rubber necking, playing with a phone, or whatever, and not responding appropriately.

I think the officer was right to bring it up, but whether a ticket should be issued I am not so sure. Maybe a verbal warning would have sufficed but each has their own discretion to apply.

IANAL but I don't think you have a leg to stand on if the legal beagles get hold of it. By all means write into the Police Infringement Bureau and explain the situation if the ticket ever turns up. You may be lucky.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

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#713758 7-Nov-2012 19:55

tardtasticx: snip...

Here is the regulation in full:

7.3A Ban on use of mobile phones while driving
(1) A driver must not, while driving a vehicle,—
(a) use a mobile phone to make, receive, or terminate a telephone call; or
(b) use a mobile phone to create, send, or read a text message; or
(c) use a mobile phone to create, send, or read an email; or
(d) use a mobile phone to create, send, or view a video message; or
(e) use a mobile phone to communicate in a way similar to a way described in any of paragraphs (b) to (d); or
(f) use a mobile phone in a way other than a way described in any of paragraphs (a) to (e).

(1A) Subclause (1) is overridden by subclauses (2) to (7).

(2) An enforcement officer may, while driving a vehicle, use a mobile phone to make, receive, or terminate a telephone call if the officer is making, receiving, or terminating the call in the execution of the officer's duty.

(3) A driver may, while driving a vehicle, use a mobile phone if—
(a) the driver is using the phone to make a 111 or *555 call; and
(b) it is unsafe or impracticable for the driver to stop and park the vehicle to make the call.

(4) A driver may, while driving a vehicle, use a mobile phone to make, receive, or terminate a telephone call if the phone does not require the driver to hold or manipulate it to make, receive, or terminate the call.

(5) [Revoked]

(6) A driver may, while driving a vehicle, use a mobile phone to make, receive, or terminate a telephone call if the vehicle has stopped for a reason other than the normal starting and stopping of vehicles in a flow of traffic.

(7) A driver may, while driving a vehicle, use a mobile phone in a way described in subclause (1)(a) or (f), if both the following apply:
(a) the phone is secured in a mounting fixed to the vehicle; and
(b) if the driver manipulates or looks at the phone, he or she does so infrequently and briefly.

I would say the question of whether or not a crash on a busy motorway, which is more than an every day occurrence, could be regarded as part of the normal flow (or lack thereof) of is worth debating. However, you weren't pulled over to the side of the road, i.e. out of the "flow" of traffic, so it is quite possible you will be regarded as being in the flow.

My advice to you IF you receive a ticket in the mail:
1. Write politely to the Police Infringement Bureau (the address will be on the back of the ticket) explaining the circumstances and stating your beliefs around "normal flow". Quote the NZTA website as you have in your reply to johnr.
2. If your excuse isn't accepted make a choice - pay the fine or advise you would like a Court hearing on the matter.

Note: This hearing will be in front of two JP's, not a Judge. If you lose you also stand to pay Court costs.

@gregmcc: "flow" is only one word, you'll need to break down more than that, as well as looking at context around various words.

EDIT: scuwp - 7.3A(1)(f)

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#713759 7-Nov-2012 19:56

Can calls and texts be sent if a driver is stuck in traffic?

If a driver is stuck in traffic due to the road ahead being blocked, for example because of an accident, they may use their mobile phone to make, send and receive calls and text messages. But this does not apply when drivers are stationary in the normal flow of traffic, such as approaching intersections, traffic lights or roadworks.

here!

seems op is right, I was wrong

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#713760 7-Nov-2012 20:02

jeffnz: Can calls and texts be sent if a driver is stuck in traffic?

If a driver is stuck in traffic due to the road ahead being blocked, for example because of an accident, they may use their mobile phone to make, send and receive calls and text messages. But this does not apply when drivers are stationary in the normal flow of traffic, such as approaching intersections, traffic lights or roadworks.

here!

seems op is right, I was wrong

Again he was using the camera - not calls or texts.

Hmmmm

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#713771 7-Nov-2012 20:10

cisconz:
jeffnz: Can calls and texts be sent if a driver is stuck in traffic?

If a driver is stuck in traffic due to the road ahead being blocked, for example because of an accident, they may use their mobile phone to make, send and receive calls and text messages. But this does not apply when drivers are stationary in the normal flow of traffic, such as approaching intersections, traffic lights or roadworks.

here!

seems op is right, I was wrong

Again he was using the camera - not calls or texts.

Read the law dude - it doesnt matter what he was doing with the phone - the law says hes not allowed to use it in any other way (i suspect that rather encompassing statement includes taking photos!)

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