20 warranty, who has to honour it?

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#807518 29-Apr-2013 16:11

If the manufacturer placed a 20 year warranty on a product and the retailer agreed to sell this product then the retailer must have accepted that the product should last 20 years.

IMO the CGA does say reasonable time, so if the product has a 20 year guarantee then for most people a reasonable time would be at least the 20 years. This is different of course to a lifetime guarantee where the lifetime represents the expected lifetime of the product - which could be 5 years.

If the knives were expensive or would cost a fortune to replace then I would pursue the claim with the retailer. Just because the manufacturer is out of business the retailer cannot go back on the CGA.

Do consider however that any tribunal ruling would likely deduct the length of time you have had unhindered use of the product from any likely payout - so if you've had them 15 years expect to get only the 5 years value left in them back (yes there are test cases where this was the case for old fridges).

If that's the case, see if you can do a deal with the retailer on a new set of knives of equivalent quality - a 50/50 split could be a win. If you've only had them 2 years - then I would suggest that you have a good case.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Procrastination eventually pays off.

networkn

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#807520 29-Apr-2013 16:11

mattwnz:
ajobbins:

The OP has stated the warranty is one of the main reasons he purchased the knives. This gives even more weight to a CGA claim, as had he known prior to purchase these knives were in fact of a lower quality that was advertised he probably would not have made the purchase. Again, rightly or wrongly - the law says that the retailer is responsible for that. In effect, they sold a product that made false claims as to quality.

Thanks you make some good points, and I may pursue the original retailer if I don't get anywhere with the current brand owner.

One problem though is that the quality of knife set that the current brand owner sells is inferior to the product I have got. Mine are chef quality and were hundred, but the ones they now sell are more your average household quality, and are far cheaper as a result. I think they also only have a 12 month warranty. So if they switched them, I would end up with an inferior knife, and I would prefer to keep the current ones, even though the handles are failing.

Personally if you got 15 years from them I'd think you did well. I wouldn't take it further.

mattwnz

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#807524 29-Apr-2013 16:16

networkn:
Personally if you got 15 years from them I'd think you did well. I wouldn't take it further.

I can see your point, but to now go out and buy another set, for something that was sold with a 20 year warranty doesn't seem right. They didn't even have much use and well looked after. If they were cheap knives eg under $100, I probably would. But I would be paying hundreds, probably at least $500 from a specialist knife retailer, to get something as good, and I have other needs for my money these days.

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#807526 29-Apr-2013 16:20

mattwnz:
networkn:
Personally if you got 15 years from them I'd think you did well. I wouldn't take it further.

I can see your point, but to now go out and buy another set, for something that was sold with a 20 year warranty doesn't seem right. They didn't even have much use and well looked after. If they were cheap knives eg under $100, I probably would. But I would be paying hundreds, probably at least $500 from a specialist knife retailer, to get something as good, and I have other needs for my money these days.

/me Shrugs, I guess it depends on your point of view personally, I'd take any guarantee of 20 years with a grain of salt. I have lots of EXPENSIVE knives and I would expect 10 years from them, though I buy international good brands and have had great support from them over the years.

You might get a reasonable result if you are prepared to push hard enough, though I don't think I would at this juncture.

minimoke

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#807538 29-Apr-2013 16:29

What is a reasonable lifespan for a knife? Who knows. A lot would depend on how you used them. but simply having a 20 year manufacturers warranty doesn't mean the retailer has to honour that.

I sharpened my Mundial knives this weekend. They are at least 20 years old, well used, not necessarily well loved and still with loads of life left in them. Assuming the handles don't fall to bits (they are already put through the dishwasher -argh!!!) I reckon I've got at least another 10 years left in them.

StarBlazer

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#807541 29-Apr-2013 16:32

mattwnz:
networkn:
Personally if you got 15 years from them I'd think you did well. I wouldn't take it further.

I can see your point, but to now go out and buy another set, for something that was sold with a 20 year warranty doesn't seem right. They didn't even have much use and well looked after. If they were cheap knives eg under $100, I probably would. But I would be paying hundreds, probably at least $500 from a specialist knife retailer, to get something as good, and I have other needs for my money these days.

As I said the ruling may remove the use you had out of them. As you had 15 years 3/4 of $500 could be the payout and that's if it was a manufacturing defect (which is what most guarantees cover). They may come back with all sorts of excuses; sun/UV damage, used in the dishwasher etc.

I normally say to fight, but my gut feel is to accept anything the store offers - ask for a voucher if you are likely to spend there in the future and go and buy a new set of knives from somewhere else.

Procrastination eventually pays off.

mattwnz

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#807544 29-Apr-2013 16:34

minimoke:

What is a reasonable lifespan for a knife? Who knows. A lot would depend on how you used them. but simply having a 20 year manufacturers warranty doesn't mean the retailer has to honour that.

I sharpened my Mundial knives this weekend. They are at least 20 years old, well used, not necessarily well loved and still with loads of life left in them. Assuming the handles don't fall to bits (they are already put through the dishwasher -argh!!!) I reckon I've got at least another 10 years left in them.

Thanks, I don't put them in the dishwasher, even though they did say dishwasher safe.

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sleemanj

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#807551 29-Apr-2013 16:40

mattwnz: I might have to contact the brnad owner, however their contact details are not easy to find as they don't have a website

If you know the company name, search it on http://www.coys.co.nz/

But, if neither retailer nor current brand owner will come to the party, you only have one option really, take one of them to the disputes tribunal, probably the retailer.

This will cost you the filing fee, which is (supposed to be) not claimable, but since we are talking about I assume a few hundred dollars worth of knives, this is probably worth a gamble.

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I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...

mattwnz

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#807552 29-Apr-2013 16:41

StarBlazer:
mattwnz:
networkn:
Personally if you got 15 years from them I'd think you did well. I wouldn't take it further.

I can see your point, but to now go out and buy another set, for something that was sold with a 20 year warranty doesn't seem right. They didn't even have much use and well looked after. If they were cheap knives eg under $100, I probably would. But I would be paying hundreds, probably at least $500 from a specialist knife retailer, to get something as good, and I have other needs for my money these days.

As I said the ruling may remove the use you had out of them. As you had 15 years 3/4 of $500 could be the payout and that's if it was a manufacturing defect (which is what most guarantees cover). They may come back with all sorts of excuses; sun/UV damage, used in the dishwasher etc.

I normally say to fight, but my gut feel is to accept anything the store offers - ask for a voucher if you are likely to spend there in the future and go and buy a new set of knives from somewhere else.

I agree, although the warranty on the packaging does say, repair or replacement. If it was a CGA claim, then it possibly would factor depreciation into it, with a cash settlement less than the price paid. I should also note that apart from the packaging I have got showing the warranty terms, there are no other terms on the warranty that ties the warranty to any particular LLC company, only the brand, so I don't really know if the new company sold them, or the old one. But you would think the current brand owner would stick behind the quality of their brand.

Elpie

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#807772 30-Apr-2013 01:35

mattwnz:
StarBlazer:
mattwnz:
networkn:
Personally if you got 15 years from them I'd think you did well. I wouldn't take it further.

I can see your point, but to now go out and buy another set, for something that was sold with a 20 year warranty doesn't seem right. They didn't even have much use and well looked after. If they were cheap knives eg under $100, I probably would. But I would be paying hundreds, probably at least $500 from a specialist knife retailer, to get something as good, and I have other needs for my money these days.

As I said the ruling may remove the use you had out of them. As you had 15 years 3/4 of $500 could be the payout and that's if it was a manufacturing defect (which is what most guarantees cover). They may come back with all sorts of excuses; sun/UV damage, used in the dishwasher etc.

I normally say to fight, but my gut feel is to accept anything the store offers - ask for a voucher if you are likely to spend there in the future and go and buy a new set of knives from somewhere else.

I agree, although the warranty on the packaging does say, repair or replacement. If it was a CGA claim, then it possibly would factor depreciation into it, with a cash settlement less than the price paid. I should also note that apart from the packaging I have got showing the warranty terms, there are no other terms on the warranty that ties the warranty to any particular LLC company, only the brand, so I don't really know if the new company sold them, or the old one. But you would think the current brand owner would stick behind the quality of their brand.

I think the test is to check what warranty is being offered by the current brand owner. If similar knives have the same 20 year warranty I'd really push the new brand owner hard on this. They may not be responsible for your particular knives but if they back their brand then they should want to do something for you. Especially if all you want is for the handles to be replaced.

If their warranty is less than yours its still worth asking them to replace the handles.

At this stage, you don't know if their takeover of the brand included honouring warranties. It probably didn't but it has been known to happen with some brands.

Byrned

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#807983 30-Apr-2013 13:47

ajobbins:
NonprayingMantis:
ajobbins: I'd ask the retailer to repair, replace or refund under the CGA.

The CGA states that the products must be of reasonable quality. If the manufacturer made assurances that the knives should last 20 years, and they didn't - they are not of reasonable quality.

The fact the manufacturer has gone out of business isn't your problem. The retailer has to honour the CGA

A warranty won't state the knifes should last 20 years. It states they will replace them if they fail within 20 years.

What is a reasonable lifespan for a knife? Who knows. A lot would depend on how you used them. but simply having a 20 year manufacturers warranty doesn't mean the retailer has to honour that.

If they guarantee to replace failed knives within 20 years, does that not imply they expect them to last 20 years?

What the manufacturer is in fact saying is "We think these knives are so good they will last 20 years." The retailer, fairly or unfairly has an obligation to the purchaser to honour the warranty because the person purchase the goods with the understanding that these knives were of a quality where they should easily last 20 years.

The 'reasonable quality' clause in the CGA is fairly ambiguous -HOWEVER, in this case, the knives have failed at a point lower than what the manufacturer specifies.

Usually disputes about 'reasonable quality' come when the failure is past the manufactures guidelines.

For example, if I buy a TV, the manufacturer only states it will last 1 year - however, it would be reasonable to expect that a TV would last longer than that (About 5 years is the guideline from Consumer). However, if the manufacturer stated that the TV should last 10 years, and it failed at 7 - you would still have a valid CGA claim because you have purchased that item with the understanding that it will last 10 years.

The OP has stated the warranty is one of the main reasons he purchased the knives. This gives even more weight to a CGA claim, as had he known prior to purchase these knives were in fact of a lower quality that was advertised he probably would not have made the purchase. Again, rightly or wrongly - the law says that the retailer is responsible for that. In effect, they sold a product that made false claims as to quality.

I find it amusing that you're willing to use the argument that "the manufacturer says it should last this long so the CGA applies". And then you quite willingly say that you don't care what the manufacturer says, it should last this long. I guess we could sum it up by saying xxx item will be covered under the CGA for however long the manufacturer states or what is a reasonable time period, whichever is the greater.

Byrned

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#807986 30-Apr-2013 13:48

Rather than the CGA, I think in this case the better arguement for the disputes tribunal would be the FTA as you could argue that the product was misrepresented if the packaging stated that a 20 year warranty was a feature. Even more so if it were prominently displayed on the packaging as it could be argued that it was a major contributor in your decision to buy.

networkn

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#807988 30-Apr-2013 13:51

This is a long thread with lots of speculation which could at least have a direction if the OP at least asks what options they have with the new people.

mattwnz

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#808000 30-Apr-2013 14:13

Byrned: Rather than the CGA, I think in this case the better arguement for the disputes tribunal would be the FTA as you could argue that the product was misrepresented if the packaging stated that a 20 year warranty was a feature. Even more so if it were prominently displayed on the packaging as it could be argued that it was a major contributor in your decision to buy.

Definitely prominently advertised, in a big colourful logo on the box. I have found that with knives, that many are now sold with a 25 year warranty or a lifetime one, and it seems to be a big selling feature, which offers reassurance to a buyer. But obviously this is pretty worthless if something like this happens, and brands and companies don't often last that long, and they could just start up under another company name, thus voiding the warranty. Makes me wonder if companies that promote these types of warranty shouldn't be required to setup some form of trust account to cover possible future claims, in case they go under. As a long warranty period like that is basically an insurance policy.

I have contacted the retailer who now sells the brand for the contact details, as I couldn't find any contact details of the actual company who owns the brand. I think it is now more of a distributor and importing company just using the brand, and apart from an address at the companies office, there are no other details.

spearsniper

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#808003 30-Apr-2013 14:16

networkn:
mattwnz:
networkn:
Personally if you got 15 years from them I'd think you did well. I wouldn't take it further.

I can see your point, but to now go out and buy another set, for something that was sold with a 20 year warranty doesn't seem right. They didn't even have much use and well looked after. If they were cheap knives eg under $100, I probably would. But I would be paying hundreds, probably at least $500 from a specialist knife retailer, to get something as good, and I have other needs for my money these days.

/me Shrugs, I guess it depends on your point of view personally, I'd take any guarantee of 20 years with a grain of salt. I have lots of EXPENSIVE knives and I would expect 10 years from them, though I buy international good brands and have had great support from them over the years.

You might get a reasonable result if you are prepared to push hard enough, though I don't think I would at this juncture.

I would be disappointed if a quality knife only lasted 10 years. I have hunting knives that get used to bone out deer, open tin cans, hack down bush, etc, and are still going strong after 20+ years. If a good quality kitchen knife got more abuse than that, I would be surprised.

When you buy a knife in the over $200 bracket, the expectation is it will last forever. Most do.

As the CGA was not in place when the OP purchased the knives, I'm not sure the company that sold the knives can be held to task on this one.

If it is only the handle giving way, I would be inclined to drop them off to a knife maker, and get them redone. That way you can expect to have them a lot more years, or until the blade is worn down from a lot of sharpening.

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