The Difference between security and bouncers

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#1007185 17-Mar-2014 11:40

Lyderies: When removing people from there premises what is acceptable for being 'physical'? are there any legal guidelines?

Bouncers like anyone are allowed to use reasonable force for self defence, if there is no need for self defence e.g you are just standing there not threatening verbally or physically then they are not allowed to touch you.The can verbally
ask you to leave in a non threatening manner, a threatening manner would constitute assault.

Lias

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#1007197 17-Mar-2014 11:59

Disclaimer: I have a COA and work part time doing bar security. All opinions are very much my own.

"Bouncer" is just a slang term for a security person at a bar. These days it tends to have negative connotations relating to thuggishness of some before doormen were licensed, and be offensive to some in the industry. "Doorman" or "Security Personnel" are generally acceptable terms.

In NZ, as of late 2011 all bar security personnel are required under the Private Security Personnel and Private Investigators Act 2010 to have a current Certificate of Approval of the "Crowd Controller" class. COA's (of other classes) are what you are required to hold to be a security guard, alarm installer, document destruction agent, etc. It involves an application to the PSPLA, which is part of the Ministry of Justice, requires a criminal conviction check, requires industry and legal training, has disqualifying criteria etc.

Anyone working in any way shape or form as a "bouncer" in NZ without possessing a COA is breaking the law.

In regard to OP's post, without having been there I can't comment with any certainty, but here's my 2cents.

A. Your friend being kicked out is absolutely reasonable. He was allegedly shoved from behind, but given he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head it's hard to say if he was in fact deliberately shoved, rather than bumped or knocked accidentally. Even if the shove was deliberate, it may have been somewhat justified if he was flailing about on the dance floor and backed into someone. His reaction to respond back with a shove shows aggressive behaviour on his part, and is grounds for removing him.

B. It's perfectly normal for others with the offender or even the entire group to be kicked out due to the actions of one person. You are on licensed premises solely at the discretion of the owner(s)/licensee(s) and their designated agents.

C. With regards to power they posses, they have no more than any other citizen, in some ways even less (because if they get it wrong, they can be fined, lose their COA, potentially cause the bar to be fined or lose its license, etc)

D. The main "powers" security staff posses are granted through the various relevant legislation, but most of them are not powers as such. For instance we can't compel you to produce identification. However we can refuse you entry to the premises for not producing it. In fact under the Sale of Liquor act you can be refused service for any reason that does't breach the Human Rights Act. Under the Sale of Liquor act, the licensee or an employee of, is actually required by law to remove you form the premises or to a place of safety if they believe you are intoxicated or being disorderly. Aside from that we have the right to require you to leave the premises under the Trespass Act 1980, and if you refuse to leave we have right to use reasonable force to compel you to leave under the Crimes Act. The Crimes act also gives us the right to use reasonable force in defence of ourselves or any other person, and to prevent breaches of the peace.

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Lyderies

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#1007200 17-Mar-2014 12:03

Lias:
D. The main "powers" security staff posses are granted through the various relevant legislation, but most of them are not powers as such. For instance we can't compel you to produce identification. However we can refuse you entry to the premises for not producing it. In fact under the Sale of Liquor act you can be refused service for any reason that does't breach the Human Rights Act. Under the Sale of Liquor act, the licensee or an employee of, is actually required by law to remove you form the premises or to a place of safety if they believe you are intoxicated or being disorderly. Aside from that we have the right to require you to leave the premises under the Trespass Act 1980, and if you refuse to leave we have right to use reasonable force to compel you to leave under the Crimes Act. The Crimes act also gives us the right to use reasonable force in defence of ourselves or any other person, and to prevent breaches of the peace.

The bolded, can this be expanded? What is reasonable force?

I'm going to noob myself past judgement

Coil

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#1007203 17-Mar-2014 12:10

Lyderies:
Lias:
D. The main "powers" security staff posses are granted through the various relevant legislation, but most of them are not powers as such. For instance we can't compel you to produce identification. However we can refuse you entry to the premises for not producing it. In fact under the Sale of Liquor act you can be refused service for any reason that does't breach the Human Rights Act. Under the Sale of Liquor act, the licensee or an employee of, is actually required by law to remove you form the premises or to a place of safety if they believe you are intoxicated or being disorderly. Aside from that we have the right to require you to leave the premises under the Trespass Act 1980, and if you refuse to leave we have right to use reasonable force to compel you to leave under the Crimes Act. The Crimes act also gives us the right to use reasonable force in defence of ourselves or any other person, and to prevent breaches of the peace.

The bolded, can this be expanded? What is reasonable force?

I would assume myself that it would be enough to remove the person without causing harm.

Lias

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#1007204 17-Mar-2014 12:11

KiwiNZ:
Lyderies: When removing people from there premises what is acceptable for being 'physical'? are there any legal guidelines?

Bouncers like anyone are allowed to use reasonable force for self defence, if there is no need for self defence e.g you are just standing there not threatening verbally or physically then they are not allowed to touch you.The can verbally
ask you to leave in a non threatening manner, a threatening manner would constitute assault.

Not fully accurate. If they have been verbally asked to leave the premises, and have not complied, reasonable force can be used to compel them.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1980/0065/latest/whole.html#DLM36943

3 Trespass after warning to leave
(1)Every person commits an offence against this Act who trespasses on any place and, after being warned to leave that place by an occupier of that place, neglects or refuses to do so.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/whole.html#DLM328284

56 Defence of land or building
(1)Every one in peaceable possession of any land or building, and every one lawfully assisting him or her or acting by his or her authority, is justified in using reasonable force to prevent any person from trespassing on the land or building or to remove him or her therefrom, if he or she does not strike or do bodily harm to that person.

They can also (somewhat obviously) use force to defend themselves, or another person, or to detain you if you have committed a crime or a breach of the peace. If you are "just standing there" after having just knocked someone out, it's quite reasonable to use force on you for instance.

Lias

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#1007207 17-Mar-2014 12:24

Lyderies:
Lias:
D. The main "powers" security staff posses are granted through the various relevant legislation, but most of them are not powers as such. For instance we can't compel you to produce identification. However we can refuse you entry to the premises for not producing it. In fact under the Sale of Liquor act you can be refused service for any reason that does't breach the Human Rights Act. Under the Sale of Liquor act, the licensee or an employee of, is actually required by law to remove you form the premises or to a place of safety if they believe you are intoxicated or being disorderly. Aside from that we have the right to require you to leave the premises under the Trespass Act 1980, and if you refuse to leave we have right to use reasonable force to compel you to leave under the Crimes Act. The Crimes act also gives us the right to use reasonable force in defence of ourselves or any other person, and to prevent breaches of the peace.

The bolded, can this be expanded? What is reasonable force?

I just posted the exact legislation as part of another reply. When compelling a trespasser to leave you are covered by a specific piece of legislation, rather than more general entries in the crimes act with regards to defence of yourself, others, preventing crimes, detaining people etc.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/whole.html#DLM328284

56 Defence of land or building
(1)Every one in peaceable possession of any land or building, and every one lawfully assisting him or her or acting by his or her authority, is justified in using reasonable force to prevent any person from trespassing on the land or building or to remove him or her therefrom, if he or she does not strike or do bodily harm to that person.

Obviously what is reasonable is open to some interpretation and this is my personal opinion but generally most security staff would use sleeper holds, half nelsons, full nelsons, arm bars, wrist locks, etc the same as the police would. The type of restraint where if you co-operate, you will generally have no ill effects. If you don't co-operate of course, you can potentially end up in pain, injured, or unconscious etc. If I put you in a loose sleeper hold, it will cause you basically no ill effect, but if you struggle and I fully apply it, your going nighty night. Same for am armbar or wristlock, loosely applied you will have no lasting effect, but if you struggle and I apply more force to it, potentially you end up with broken bones, dislocations, etc (this is fairly unlikely, most people would stop resisting long before any serious injury was done to them).

MikeB4

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#1007208 17-Mar-2014 12:25

The best approach and saves any hassles is to leave and spend ones hard earned elsewhere

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Lias

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#1007214 17-Mar-2014 12:29

KiwiNZ: The best approach and saves any hassles is to leave and spend ones hard earned elsewhere

Agreed.. assuming of course you can get in somewhere else.. The majority of people ejected from bars will be in no fit state to get into another one :-)

MikeB4

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#1007216 17-Mar-2014 12:32

Lias:
KiwiNZ: The best approach and saves any hassles is to leave and spend ones hard earned elsewhere

Agreed.. assuming of course you can get in somewhere else.. The majority of people ejected from bars will be in no fit state to get into another one :-)

Then it is time to go home and not cause grief to others

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#1007226 17-Mar-2014 12:55

Geektastic:
Lyderies: No idiocy from me, we were on the dance floor a guy shoved my friend from behind so naturally he turned around and shoved him back, the guy was the owner of the club and got the bouncer to kick him, all i did was ask for the manager and ask to go back in and collect my stuff which then got me refused back in

You see, that's idiocy right there. (over and above the idiocy of being on a dance floor!)

If someone shoves you it is not natural to turn around and shove them back, it is confrontational.

It's natural to use common sense and move away from them.

Agree with you Geektastic...

If you shove someone in a club, does not matter if you were shoved first or not, you deserve to be shown the door.

The same for drunken behavior. If you drunk, or intoxicated, you should be bounced out too.

turnin

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#1007230 17-Mar-2014 13:06

Bouncer in Hamilton judges people on their willingness to shake hands, he puts his hand out as you walk in, if you shake it and smile at him, you're in,
if you hesitate , you're out. And it worked , there was hardly any trouble, never saw him have to eject anyone .
I imagine many bouncers "like" the opportunity to arise where they have to "sort out" trouble but I've never ever had any issue , and I've certainly had some fun drunk times over the years. It's pretty simple, if you can't drink and respect people at the same time, don't drink.

resurrect

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#1007285 17-Mar-2014 13:49

Lyderies: No idiocy from me, we were on the dance floor a guy shoved my friend from behind so naturally he turned around and shoved him back, the guy was the owner of the club and got the bouncer to kick him, all i did was ask for the manager and ask to go back in and collect my stuff which then got me refused back in

were you able to eventually get your stuff back?

and how much hassle was it to get back?

Lyderies

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#1007289 17-Mar-2014 13:50

resurrect:
Lyderies: No idiocy from me, we were on the dance floor a guy shoved my friend from behind so naturally he turned around and shoved him back, the guy was the owner of the club and got the bouncer to kick him, all i did was ask for the manager and ask to go back in and collect my stuff which then got me refused back in

were you able to eventually get your stuff back?

and how much hassle was it to get back?

Nope, called them up next day and was told it wasn't there,
So i have just written it off

I'm going to noob myself past judgement

resurrect

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#1007321 17-Mar-2014 14:01

Lyderies:
Nope, called them up next day and was told it wasn't there,
So i have just written it off

Or maybe do a complaint of theft? that should get the ball rolling at least.

SpookyAwol

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#1007330 17-Mar-2014 14:13

How would a complaint of theft go?

"So sir, who took your stuff?"
"Im not sure, I left it at a pub"
"Could you not go back and get it?"
"No, I was thrown out by the bouncers......"

At best, you could report it as lost property and hope someone hands it in.

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