Dangerous Philips Halogen transformer

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andrewNZ

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#1382160 9-Sep-2015 07:24

That statement isn't entirely correct either I'm afraid.

Circuit breakers are required to not trip at the rated current. At 1.4x the rated current they must trip within 4 hours. (there's more to it, but I cant remember it and I'm not able to look it up right now.

The reason for dropping rewireable fuses are many, but the main ones are.
1) They have a very poor ability to stop high fault currents (about 1.5kA). Under serious fault conditions they may fail to interrupt the current.
2) They are a safety issue. They had to be removed, which allowed contact with live parts. People also wired them incorrectly, leaving ends of fuse wire exposed, which is a significant shock hazard.
3) People can and do, either deliberately or through ignorance put the wrong size fuse wire in them.

mdooher

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#1382175 9-Sep-2015 08:05

stuartmac:

Actually I recently changed to these:
http://www.halcyonlights.co.nz/products/interior-lighting/control-gear/0-70w-electronic-transformer/ They work right down to 0W so are perfect for LED as well, about $10+ from memory... and they are a lovely colour

That transformer is 12V AC - is that really suitable for LED? I thought they needed 12V DC.

Replacement type LEDs work fine on AC, the fitting/lamp has a built in rectifier

Matthew

Beccara

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#1382184 9-Sep-2015 08:35

andrewNZ: That statement isn't entirely correct either I'm afraid.

Circuit breakers are required to not trip at the rated current. At 1.4x the rated current they must trip within 4 hours. (there's more to it, but I cant remember it and I'm not able to look it up right now.

The reason for dropping rewireable fuses are many, but the main ones are.
1) They have a very poor ability to stop high fault currents (about 1.5kA). Under serious fault conditions they may fail to interrupt the current.
2) They are a safety issue. They had to be removed, which allowed contact with live parts. People also wired them incorrectly, leaving ends of fuse wire exposed, which is a significant shock hazard.
3) People can and do, either deliberately or through ignorance put the wrong size fuse wire in them.

Lighting circuits are meant to have type B or C tripping curve MCB's, These will trip at 1x for sustained periods, At 1.4x they will trip in under a minute, In a dead short from the device you will see an instant trip once the current reaches 3.2x to 7x.

As long as this unit was attached to a light that wasn't turning on and wasn't still on/working/heating up then i would say the devices multiple fail safes listed on the last page have worked just fine

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

richms

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#1384692 10-Sep-2015 01:25

That one looks more like it was sitting ontop of the halogen lamp.

Do yourself a favour and replace them all, at once. Dont stuff about doing one at a time. The power savings are immense with LED instead of incandesent lamps. No excuse not to, payback is in the order of months in most cases.

Richard rich.ms

Fred99

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#1384783 10-Sep-2015 09:48

andrewNZ: That statement isn't entirely correct either I'm afraid.

Circuit breakers are required to not trip at the rated current. At 1.4x the rated current they must trip within 4 hours. (there's more to it, but I cant remember it and I'm not able to look it up right now.

I don't think so...
There are different types of breakers with different ratings, but I think the standard domestic type is "C - curve". It should be marked with the amp rating preceded with a letter, so the MCB should have say "10A" but also if C rated, then "C 10" marked on it, as well as voltage, maximum breaking current rating etc.
Maximum inrush current before tripping for the "C" type is rated at 5-10x rated current for 100ms. So a 10A breaker should not trip with < 50-100A inrush current over 1/10 second.
Looking at the curve chart, then approx:
At 2x rated current, it should trip in about 2 mins.
At 1.4x rated current, it should trip in about 10 mins.
At >1x rated current, it should trip in one hour.
Those ratings at a standard temp (30 deg C?)

AS/NZS 3111 seems to be the relevant standard.

Edit - read Becarra's post above after posting this. We don't have the same figure for how long before a B or C breaker will trip at 1.4x current, but the basic idea is the same.
The inrush current/short circuit protection is solenoid actuated. B & C have different trip current ratings for this. The longer term overload protection is bimettalic strip (thermal) and it looks like they behave much the same when current in overload conditions <3x rating and > 10 seconds.

mdooher

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#1384802 10-Sep-2015 10:06

richms: That one looks more like it was sitting ontop of the halogen lamp.

Do yourself a favour and replace them all, at once. Dont stuff about doing one at a time. The power savings are immense with LED instead of incandesent lamps. No excuse not to, payback is in the order of months in most cases.

Obviously it depends on what you pay, but if you replace a 50W halogen and pay around $35 for a high quality fitting and assume driver and the LED and driver use about 10W:

If electricity cost 25cents per kilowatt hour and you are saving 40W per fitting, this means you saving around 1 cent per hour per fitting.

So each fitting will take 3500 hours to pay for itself or 2 years if you use it 4 hours per day.

edit Maths

Matthew

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richms

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#1384951 10-Sep-2015 13:02

mdooher:
Obviously it depends on what you pay, but if you replace a 50W halogen and pay around $35 for a high quality fitting and assume driver and the LED and driver use about 10W:

If electricity cost 25cents per kilowatt hour and you are saving 40W per fitting, this means you saving around 1 cent per hour per fitting.

So each fitting will take 3500 hours to pay for itself or 2 years if you use it 4 hours per day.

edit Maths

Slap in a $4-5 replacement MR16 and it works out to a few months. There are plenty of decent looking ones in the under $10 range now too. Ones without a diffuser on the front will project more and throw less sideways so are closer to a halogen for beam, better than in many cases. But the cheap pack of 8 from bunnings has its place and will have you saving money instantly.

Richard rich.ms

surfisup1000

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#1400244 5-Oct-2015 13:16

nigelj: Might be serious enough to go direct to Energy Safety, especially as you've tried to raise issues with the product in the past.

To report a potentially unsafe product: https://www.energysafety.govt.nz/forms/product-appliance-complaint-form (alternatively ring them).

I sent these guys an email ...they just replied....

Premature failure of the lighting transformers is a consumer guarantees issue, not one that Energy Safety administers.

If you still have a concern we can ask Philips to contact you to help resolve the issue.

We will not however pass on your contact details without your permission. Please advise us by e-mail

So, guess it is not their job.

gzt

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#1400268 5-Oct-2015 13:42

Maybe a fire service opinion.

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