Annual Leave Question

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359 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1717916 9-Feb-2017 20:52

BTR:

Awesome thank you, What about this line " The employee is not entitled to be paid for any overtime worked."

This would become outside the law in the following case, If you are on Salary and the extra unpaid hours worked dropped your pay to below Hrs x MinimumWage, This tripped up a few dairy farmers where they had a casual arrangement wherein the busy season u worked as required and in the off season you went home earlier when work was done

This tripped up a few dairy farmers where they had a casual arrangement wherein the busy season u worked as required often longer hours and in the off season you went home earlier when work was done

dickytim

2514 posts

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#1718030 10-Feb-2017 06:10

BTR:

Hi, I just wanted to ask here quickly but i will be talking to an employment lawyer.

Can an employer state in a contract that annual leave will not role over and that of your 4 weeks given you have to take two weeks at Christmas (That I understand) and the other two weeks during school holidays.

Can they really dictate when you take your annual leave that much?

I've had a look at employment.govt.nz but can't find an answer.

Thanks

my understanding is that they can't state that annual leave can't roll over, but they can dictate when it is take, to some extent anyway, but do you really want to work in a company that is so inflexible?

dickytim

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#1718031 10-Feb-2017 06:20

BTR:

Awesome thank you, What about this line " The employee is not entitled to be paid for any overtime worked."

The employee doesn't have to work over the stipulated hours up to 40 hours a week either, that clause doesn't entitle the employer to work you like a slave.

It is really sad that is NZ employers get away with not paying overtime, but we are protected, we can simply say no, besides it is an employees market at the moment.

Everything you have stated suggests you should have the clauses removed or walk away.

nzkiwiman

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#1718076 10-Feb-2017 08:16

Without me needing to read the act, is there anything in there about how long an employer can "sit" on annual leave requests?

BlinkyBill

1443 posts

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#1718087 10-Feb-2017 08:44

nzkiwiman:
Without me needing to read the act, is there anything in there about how long an employer can "sit" on annual leave requests?

There is no end to the human condition.

I don't know the answer to your question (is there anything in the Act), but the employment tribunal would say that they answer when you ask. Leave cannot be unreasonably withheld and it is a reality of life that things need to be planned in advance. That applies to both sides of the coin, by the way.

When I am asked for leave I already know if there are any reasons why I can't agree to a specific timeframe. If there is nothing impacting the requested timeframe then I agree to the leave. If there is a possibility that something might impact on the requested timeframe I provisionally agree letting the person know that, and why. I take into account the persons rationale for the leave - going to see your long-lost sister in Canada is more important than a few days to chill out.

I really don't understand this adverserial tone about leave; leave is essential for wellbeing and it is in everyone's interest to take leave - employer as well.

I am considering upping my paid leave provisions to six weeks paid; that would cost me 100x2weeks of extra payroll expense, let's say $600k, but it might be worthwhile for the business overall.

trig42

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#1718103 10-Feb-2017 09:34

@BTR: Be aware that over the Christmas Break, there are 4 statutory days (which is 80% of a work week), so if your employer is saying you must take 2 weeks of your annual leave at Christmas, you will need to take two weeks, plus 4 days (so, 14 working days, or 18 days including weekends, assuming a 5-day working week).

Are you expected to work any Stat days?

Geektastic

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#1718119 10-Feb-2017 10:11

No wonder our productivity is poor. This ridiculous Christmas shutdown, together with the fact that work seems to dwindle to almost nothing for the last 2 weeks before Christmas and the first two or three weeks of January, must equate to NZ working at best an 11 month year...!

High time that was consigned to the bin. It's not even much of a money saving exercise these days, I would think - most businesses with fixed costs will continue to incur them over the shutdown but to no advantage since no work is being done.

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dickytim

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#1718175 10-Feb-2017 10:41

BlinkyBill:
nzkiwiman:

Without me needing to read the act, is there anything in there about how long an employer can "sit" on annual leave requests?

There is no end to the human condition.

I don't know the answer to your question (is there anything in the Act), but the employment tribunal would say that they answer when you ask. Leave cannot be unreasonably withheld and it is a reality of life that things need to be planned in advance. That applies to both sides of the coin, by the way.

When I am asked for leave I already know if there are any reasons why I can't agree to a specific timeframe. If there is nothing impacting the requested timeframe then I agree to the leave. If there is a possibility that something might impact on the requested timeframe I provisionally agree letting the person know that, and why. I take into account the persons rationale for the leave - going to see your long-lost sister in Canada is more important than a few days to chill out.

I really don't understand this adverserial tone about leave; leave is essential for wellbeing and it is in everyone's interest to take leave - employer as well.

I am considering upping my paid leave provisions to six weeks paid; that would cost me 100x2weeks of extra payroll expense, let's say $600k, but it might be worthwhile for the business overall.

I asked last year for this over a pay rise, 1 x week annual leave = 2% pay rise approx, in the end I was given the percentage pay rise equivalent to 2 weeks extra leave 4%

To be honest the 2 weeks leave was of a lot more value to me, BlinkyBill can I come work for you!

trig42

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#1718186 10-Feb-2017 10:55

dickytim:

BlinkyBill:
nzkiwiman:

Without me needing to read the act, is there anything in there about how long an employer can "sit" on annual leave requests?

There is no end to the human condition.

I don't know the answer to your question (is there anything in the Act), but the employment tribunal would say that they answer when you ask. Leave cannot be unreasonably withheld and it is a reality of life that things need to be planned in advance. That applies to both sides of the coin, by the way.

When I am asked for leave I already know if there are any reasons why I can't agree to a specific timeframe. If there is nothing impacting the requested timeframe then I agree to the leave. If there is a possibility that something might impact on the requested timeframe I provisionally agree letting the person know that, and why. I take into account the persons rationale for the leave - going to see your long-lost sister in Canada is more important than a few days to chill out.

I really don't understand this adverserial tone about leave; leave is essential for wellbeing and it is in everyone's interest to take leave - employer as well.

I am considering upping my paid leave provisions to six weeks paid; that would cost me 100x2weeks of extra payroll expense, let's say $600k, but it might be worthwhile for the business overall.

I asked last year for this over a pay rise, 1 x week annual leave = 2% pay rise approx, in the end I was given the percentage pay rise equivalent to 2 weeks extra leave 4%

To be honest the 2 weeks leave was of a lot more value to me, BlinkyBill can I come work for you!

Agreed, I'd rather have an extra two weeks of accruable annual leave than (say) a 5% pay rise. I like to take a couple of days here and there during the year, as well as having enough 'in the bank' for a decent holiday every two or three years. At the moment I have just over 5 weeks owing to me. I plan on letting that build as SWMBO is talking about Europe next year.

frankv

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#1718230 10-Feb-2017 11:53

Remember that (in theory) this is a contract to be mutually agreed between employer and employee. You don't have to agree to whatever the employer has written into the contract... you can propose amendments or write your own employment contract and ask the employer to agree to that. Admittedly, the power structure may not give you much negotiating room. If you're unhappy about something, ask for an amendment and see what happens. For example, regarding the "unpaid overtime" clause you could ask for that to be limited to (say) 2 hours per week. If the employer isn't happy about that, then you can assume that he expects more than 2 hours unpaid overtime in some (all?) weeks.

I'd also add that IMHO if you're relying on your employment contract for anything, then it's time to look for a new job. A bit of leeway from both the employer and employee goes a long way to making the employment relationship work pleasantly. If the employer is applying the employment contract as a black & white limit, it's going to make your life difficult. Equally, if you're going to insist on (e.g.) getting paid for an extra 2 minutes you do every now and then, then it's a pain in the butt for the employer. Swings and roundabouts.

I occasionally do a bit of unpaid work overnight when something breaks. When I had car issues a while back, my boss let me take some time during the day to get those sorted. Or to go to the dentist. Or whatever odd thing happens that would require some of my time during working hours.

BlinkyBill

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#1718312 10-Feb-2017 13:27

I need to figure out if I'll let the extra two weeks accrue. At the moment I can sustain accruals up to a years-worth of leave, i.e. four weeks accrued from a previous year or years. Worst case that would be 400 weeks of accrued leave plus up to 400 weeks current leave-year leave.

800 weeks of liability equates to about $2.3m of leave liability, at average salary rates. If I increase leave to 6 weeks, accrue to 4 that is 1,000 weeks worst-case or an additional, say, $600k, or $2.9m overall. Accruing up to 6 would make it about $3.5m.

I can't really run my business on ever-increasing leave liability which is why I need to cap accruals. The liability remains even if my income doesn't keep on coming in.

These numbers are worst case - most of my people take most of their leave each year, if not all. Right now I probably have circa $1-1.2m in leave liability. I need to check.

I'm leaning towards 6 weeks paid leave accumulated to a maximum of 4 weeks from prior years. Now I need to determine the business impact. I would probably need to hire 2-3 people just to cover the extra leave. Gut feel says it's worthwhile, but I will analyst it empirically, and it will be a wee bit difficult to assess productivity gains.

kharris

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#1718336 10-Feb-2017 14:34

Is the role somehow tied to the school holidays? i.e child care?

Kirk

Bikergirl

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Wannabe Geek

#1718424 10-Feb-2017 19:47

Hi BTR

Regarding your first question about having to take leave. I assume from your post you are working at a school. If you are not a teacher then I have looked up a collective agreement regarding Support Staff in Schools. In Part 6.3.1 it states "All annual leave shall be taken at a time in which the school is officially closed for instruction (unless there is, or has been, agreement to do otherwise)." If you are on an individual contract I would think they would align your contract to the clause in this agreement unless you can come to some other arrangement.

Regarding Overtime, many government organisations and businesses will only give TIL (Time in Lieu). Which can at times be impossible to take.

Good luck with seeking advice from an Employment Lawyer.

blakamin

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#1718426 10-Feb-2017 19:58

Geektastic:

No wonder our productivity is poor. This ridiculous Christmas shutdown, together with the fact that work seems to dwindle to almost nothing for the last 2 weeks before Christmas and the first two or three weeks of January, must equate to NZ working at best an 11 month year...!

High time that was consigned to the bin. It's not even much of a money saving exercise these days, I would think - most businesses with fixed costs will continue to incur them over the shutdown but to no advantage since no work is being done.

Spoken like someone that has never had a summer holiday and wanted to spend time with their kids... oh, wait...

We shut down because there is so many stat days, and eff your kitchen, really, because tradies have families and want some time off too.

afe66

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#1718602 11-Feb-2017 11:40

I got to 670 hours unused annual leave before my manager said I had to take several months off. Then my head of department informed the manager how much it would cost to employ a locum to cover this period... They paid me 14 weeks salary as lump sum. 😊😊

When I left my previous job 5 years earlier the same happened but only paid 13 weeks that time and my partner 11 weeks.

Lots of lump sums into the mortgage....

A.

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