Housing crisis in Auckland

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#1620101 31-Aug-2016 10:04

Aredwood:

webwat:

If you try to drive teh house prices down too much you will find banks have lent money on houses that are worth less than the mortgages. When this happens banks can become bankrupts. Not good.

Its easy to react against "immigration" but I think we need to take a sensible approach. Possibly create incentives for immigrants to look at provincial towns. Definitely create disincentives for anyone at all to sit on undeveloped land or under-utilised buildings waiting for years expecting prices to rise automatically. Maybe part of the solution is for Auckland Council to shift to rates calculated on land value and cost of infrastructure/services to encourage more development.

The law that created the Auckland council. Also says that the council must use capital value for calculating rates - not land value. A conspiracy theorist would say some large property developers or land bankers lobbied the government to include that in law.

It personally benefited me. My section that only has 1 house on it is big enough to be subdivided. When the Auckland council came into existence. My rates went down by $500 per year. While all my neighbours got rates rises. It would have gone down even more if there hadn't been a rates rise at the same time.

Apartment owners would have been hurt the most by the change to capital value rating. As apartment normally have a low land value and high capital value in comparison. Due to value of land that apartment building is built on divided by number of apartments in that building.

For the record - I still want to see a return to land value rating. Even though I would have to pay more in rates.

And if that guy is actually getting people to pay him rent for his paddock. I should probably put up the rent I charge my flatmates. (maybe after I finish installing the insulation)

I'd rather see the introduction of local taxes based on per capita measures.

Houses and their value bear no relevance at all to the amount of services required by a town or city. People use services, not the houses they live in. Thus, if $X is the per capita adult share of the council's finances, 4 adults in a house should pay $4X and one adult should pay $1X

Much fairer than basing the costs on what a house may or may not be worth every 3 years.

UHD

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#1620103 31-Aug-2016 10:21

joker97:

Nowhere in the world that I know of (ok my world is not very big) allows non residents to own property. This snowball started way back in the 90s, the year after Sept 11. I watched the house prices climb, presumably because NZ is a safe haven. Since the 90s the economists have been predicting a housing crash. They say the same thing every year. The truth is, there are a lot of very rich people out there (legal or not) who want to invest or live in NZ's 'oh so pure and beautiful' country.

When's it going to end? WHen those with no reason to own property or with no legal money be eliminated, or willingly exclude themselves (ie find another foreign paradise to play in).

If you have enough money, the list of countries where you cannot buy property is very short.

risingstar

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#1620130 31-Aug-2016 11:54

I don't think we should worry much about Immigration. Immigration is always good for a country – what matters is the quality and appropriateness of immigrants for the country.

People picking New Zealand over other countries only means that there is something going right here and we don’t want to disturb this.
More immigrants means more taxes generated for development and more market for our Products / Companies.

I think the key issues are

Tax benefits in Housing market over other investment
Lack / limited number of investment options with no returns (or taxed heavily) (Securities, Bonds,etc..)
Companies with huge counts concentrated around Auckland (many stay in and around CBD just for commuting to work)
Bad infrastructure planning (For a huge city like Auckland our Metro train infrastructure is silly !!!)

All of the above have an indirect effect over Housing. Some of the possible way to avert the crisis is to :

Bring more taxes on housing investments (at least introduce Capital gains tax sensibly)
Have long term vision to develop efficient and pragmatic infrastructure to connects nearby cities (Auckland – Hamilton high speed train will effectively disburse majority of the suffering first home buyers outside Auckland)
Give tax benefits to setup companies / universities outside densely populated areas
Develop the 2-tier cities by luring (free land / tax free investment (for a reasonable period)) companies to setup in regions which need government help and jobs

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#1620131 31-Aug-2016 11:55

TwoSeven: I would probably use the term 'strong demand' rather than crisis. As with all things in economics, supply often lags demand, and I suspect substitution might be in the form of moving to cities or regions where prices are lower and in the longer term forms of transport such as urban rail that allow external populations into city centres for work more easily.

What I would like to see though is a national medium density housing plan that factors in environmental concerns such as green space, trees, wild gardens, rental accomodation with adiquate multi-vehicle garaged parking and allowance for animals, urban rail from surrounding suburbs and towns and adiquate parking at the rail stops and in the inner cities. It doesn't need to happen over night, but if all of the cities and towns were flying in formation with the same vision I think in 10 to 15 years time much of the issues would be solved.

We say Auckland housing crisis now. In 10 years' time we would be talking about a national housing crisis.

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#1620147 31-Aug-2016 12:18

Heard the Deputy Governor of the Reserve Bank being interviewed yesterday. Bottom line is that the Reserve Bank does not give a toss how high the Auckland house prices go but cares very much about protecting the banking system from a crisis.

dickytim

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#1620149 31-Aug-2016 12:22

MikeB4:
dickytim:

Why are we not moving long term unemployed out of Auckland?

The cumulative effect is more homes in Auckland available and moving people out provides more jobs in the provincial areas = win-win.

Should anyone in a state house have the right to demand they live in the most expensive city in Auckland?

We talk about a crisis, a crisis needs drastic action, drastic action like moving people who don't need to be in an area out of that area.

If we are not willing to look as something like this we need to stop whinging about the crisis.

BTW is Melbourne my brother lives 55+km from the CBD via a toll road. That is the equivalent to living in Pukekohe, Pokeno etc. he lives there because it was where a first home buyer could afford to buy, he didn't look to live in the inner suburbs (Manukau inwards) as it simply is out of the scope of reality.

Wow, I am at a loss for words.

Then you are not serious about the housing crisis then.

dickytim

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#1620151 31-Aug-2016 12:24

frankv:

dickytim:

Why are we not moving long term unemployed out of Auckland?

Because they are people.

Should anyone in a state house have the right to demand they live in the most expensive city in Auckland?

We talk about a crisis, a crisis needs drastic action, drastic action like moving people who don't need to be in an area out of that area.

Why is state housing a criterion for people being allowed to live where they want? It would be much more efficient if the Govt (or employers?) were allowed to tell people where they have to live.

Why should free housing be supplied in the most expensive part of the country? I can live where I choose based on the fact I pay the market rate for rent/ mortgage where I choose to live. Again you call it a crisis but seem unwilling to look at drastic action that is required to fix it.

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#1620152 31-Aug-2016 12:26

dickytim:

MikeB4:
dickytim:

Why are we not moving long term unemployed out of Auckland?

The cumulative effect is more homes in Auckland available and moving people out provides more jobs in the provincial areas = win-win.

Should anyone in a state house have the right to demand they live in the most expensive city in Auckland?

We talk about a crisis, a crisis needs drastic action, drastic action like moving people who don't need to be in an area out of that area.

If we are not willing to look as something like this we need to stop whinging about the crisis.

BTW is Melbourne my brother lives 55+km from the CBD via a toll road. That is the equivalent to living in Pukekohe, Pokeno etc. he lives there because it was where a first home buyer could afford to buy, he didn't look to live in the inner suburbs (Manukau inwards) as it simply is out of the scope of reality.

Wow, I am at a loss for words.

Then you are not serious about the housing crisis then.

I am very serious about it, I am interested in busing New Zealanders out of sight out of mind and blaming the poor for this problem. Your post showed you have no idea about the problem and out of touch with the serious issues facing NZ

dickytim

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#1620158 31-Aug-2016 12:33

As the saying goes beggars can't be choosers, however in NZ they can.

No one said they were to be bussed out of site, that is your addition, they do however need to stop taking up space then is needed in the biggest city for workers that need to be there.

BTW what is the magic bullet from the leftist side of the fence? Robin Hood?

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#1620169 31-Aug-2016 12:44

dickytim:

As the saying goes beggars can't be choosers, however in NZ they can.

No one said they were to be bussed out of site, that is your addition, they do however need to stop taking up space then is needed in the biggest city for workers that need to be there.

BTW what is the magic bullet from the leftist side of the fence? Robin Hood?

No need to ship anyone away, build a satellite town starting with state houses with a train straight to the CBD. Over time, as the big players come in eg Countdown, etc, other people will build houses, then prices go up, govt sell their state houses, make profit, go build another satellite state house town somewhere else.

Problem is, NZ govt need "evidence" before they do anything, so they pay some third party millions to get this evidence and what they do turns out to be wrong. Aren't politicians paid enough to make good decisions? (without deflecting this responsibility to third party money makers- who generally tell the govt what they want to hear - which is why it never works)

MikeB4

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#1620176 31-Aug-2016 12:49

dickytim:
As the saying goes beggars can't be choosers, however in NZ they can.

No one said they were to be bussed out of site, that is your addition, they do however need to stop taking up space then is needed in the biggest city for workers that need to be there.

BTW what is the magic bullet from the leftist side of the fence? Robin Hood?

I am not left wing but I wouldn't be ashamed if I were so your comment is pointless, i did however work both paid and voluntary in social services for greater than quarter of a century. I am more in touch about what is happening than you appear to be.

People who are for what ever reason are not working are NOT taking up space they are living there lives. They do not need to be devalued.

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#1620177 31-Aug-2016 12:51

joker97:
dickytim:

As the saying goes beggars can't be choosers, however in NZ they can.

No one said they were to be bussed out of site, that is your addition, they do however need to stop taking up space then is needed in the biggest city for workers that need to be there.

BTW what is the magic bullet from the leftist side of the fence? Robin Hood?

No need to ship anyone away, build a satellite town starting with state houses with a train straight to the CBD. Over time, as the big players come in eg Countdown, etc, other people will build houses, then prices go up, govt sell their state houses, make profit, go build another satellite state house town somewhere else.

Problem is, NZ govt need "evidence" before they do anything, so they pay some third party millions to get this evidence and what they do turns out to be wrong. Aren't politicians paid enough to make good decisions? (without deflecting this responsibility to third party money makers- who generally tell the govt what they want to hear - which is why it never works)

That type of social experiment has been tried and failed.

dickytim

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#1620178 31-Aug-2016 12:52

joker97:

dickytim:

As the saying goes beggars can't be choosers, however in NZ they can.

No one said they were to be bussed out of site, that is your addition, they do however need to stop taking up space then is needed in the biggest city for workers that need to be there.

BTW what is the magic bullet from the leftist side of the fence? Robin Hood?

No need to ship anyone away, build a satellite town starting with state houses with a train straight to the CBD. Over time, as the big players come in eg Countdown, etc, other people will build houses, then prices go up, govt sell their state houses, make profit, go build another satellite state house town somewhere else.

Sorry not sure if this is sarcasm or not but it makes a lot of sense, then when people want to move closer to the CBD they upskill, improve themselves and move up in the world.

The conversation about the poor really gets me, I had nothing when I was growing up. We were the poor kids at school that wore second hand clothes, shoes etc. In our teens was a little better but we lived in the cheapest rental in the worst part of town. My first job was pumping petrol, then cleaning, working in a warehouse. I improved my lot with hard work, a little luck and patience.

What I get sick of is the poor blaming the other classes for their problems.

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#1620182 31-Aug-2016 12:56

MikeB4:
joker97:

dickytim:

As the saying goes beggars can't be choosers, however in NZ they can.

No one said they were to be bussed out of site, that is your addition, they do however need to stop taking up space then is needed in the biggest city for workers that need to be there.

BTW what is the magic bullet from the leftist side of the fence? Robin Hood?

No need to ship anyone away, build a satellite town starting with state houses with a train straight to the CBD. Over time, as the big players come in eg Countdown, etc, other people will build houses, then prices go up, govt sell their state houses, make profit, go build another satellite state house town somewhere else.

Problem is, NZ govt need "evidence" before they do anything, so they pay some third party millions to get this evidence and what they do turns out to be wrong. Aren't politicians paid enough to make good decisions? (without deflecting this responsibility to third party money makers- who generally tell the govt what they want to hear - which is why it never works)

That type of social experiment has been tried and failed.

Better to try that than the way it currently is I reckon. Doesn't have to be compulsory & shipped there in a bus.

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#1620185 31-Aug-2016 12:59

risingstar:

I don't think we should worry much about Immigration. Immigration is always good for a country – what matters is the quality and appropriateness of immigrants for the country.

People picking New Zealand over other countries only means that there is something going right here and we don’t want to disturb this.
More immigrants means more taxes generated for development and more market for our Products / Companies.

I think the key issues are

Tax benefits in Housing market over other investment
Lack / limited number of investment options with no returns (or taxed heavily) (Securities, Bonds,etc..)
Companies with huge counts concentrated around Auckland (many stay in and around CBD just for commuting to work)
Bad infrastructure planning (For a huge city like Auckland our Metro train infrastructure is silly !!!)
All of the above have an indirect effect over Housing. Some of the possible way to avert the crisis is to :

Bring more taxes on housing investments (at least introduce Capital gains tax sensibly)
Have long term vision to develop efficient and pragmatic infrastructure to connects nearby cities (Auckland – Hamilton high speed train will effectively disburse majority of the suffering first home buyers outside Auckland)
Give tax benefits to setup companies / universities outside densely populated areas
Develop the 2-tier cities by luring (free land / tax free investment (for a reasonable period)) companies to setup in regions which need government help and jobs

We should also not forget that many comparable countries have tax free status for retirement saving.

In NZ we do not - the only hope of tax free gain is housing, so many people buy second, third etc houses as part of retirement planning.

Do not overlook the added strain on the housing market that curious state of affairs causes.

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