Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
dejadeadnz
2394 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #2582447 10-Oct-2020 21:13
Send private message

sbiddle:

 

What pile on crowd? 

 

 

For clarity I was referring to the people +1ing your initial post. And those generally expressing similar comments without understanding the legal implications. Like the below post.

 

Andib:

 

The story reads very one sided, There's 100% a side that isn't being told. Why would the employer only be treating this as an employment issue and not pressing theft charges for employees "Stealing" company assets?  Vehicles are a pretty big thing to let slide if it was exactly as the article read.

 

 

This is why people who aren't lawyers and don't have legal training shouldn't be making these kinds of comments. Again, you wouldn't comment on what should happen in a surgical room or whatever if you aren't a doctor; show some similar respect in relation to something similarly complex. Theft as an offence requires the prosecution to establish, amongst other things, that in taking physical goods and intending to deprive the owner of it, that the offender did so without what is called a "claim of right", i.e. does not genuinely/honestly believe that they are entitled to possession/ownership of the goods concerned. Taking the respondents' claims literally, they clearly believe that (1) they own the property and/or (2) that they have an entitlement to it.

 

Whether they are right or wrong is another matter. Once the police investigated, any criminal complaint would have been dismissed quickly. This however doesn't determine the merits of the civil dispute.

 

To labour the point: it's best not to offer these sorts of opinions if you lack the requisite knowledge to form a reasoned basis for any opinion.




freitasm
BDFL - Memuneh
79288 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator
ID Verified
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

  #2582448 10-Oct-2020 21:47
Send private message

Yes, but since this is not a court and not everyone is a lawyer then I consider this a space people can express their opinions and ideas.

How boring a world this would be if everyone thought the same. My point is that since these are opinions and not legal advice, there is nothing wrong with what people post.




Please support Geekzone by subscribing, or using one of our referral links: Quic Broadband (free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE) | Samsung | AliExpress | Wise | Sharesies | Hatch | GoodSync 


dejadeadnz
2394 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #2582450 10-Oct-2020 22:14
Send private message

Sure, by all means discuss. But then match the vehemence of one's assertions with the degree of evidence and reason available to the poster. There are plenty of reasonable ways to express the view that this might be a complex issue and/or that this is some kind of unusual situation (see e.g. Surisup1000's first post on p.1), without immediately impugning the journalist's professionalism or the applicant/the company's honesty, as quite a number of posters in this thread have.

 

Edit: corrected the reference to being the applicant/company.

 

 




  #2582451 10-Oct-2020 22:17
Send private message

It sounds like sbiddle may know some of the people involved. He can't say exactly what happened because it might screw up the case, and just general privacy/not his place, but knows it's not exactly what Stuff said.

 

What is the internet for if not sharing unfounded theories/rumours?


kiwifidget
"Cookie"
3423 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2582453 10-Oct-2020 22:20
Send private message

SomeoneSomewhere:

 

It sounds like sbiddle may know some of the people involved. He can't say exactly what happened because it might screw up the case, and just general privacy/not his place, but knows it's not exactly what Stuff said.

 

What is the internet for if not sharing unfounded theories/rumours?

 

 

cat videos.





Delete cookies?! Are you insane?!


Rickles
2937 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2582590 11-Oct-2020 11:29
Send private message

I see that many of the Respondents were Directors of the companies/businesses cited in Para 3 of the ERA ruling.


frankv
5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2582898 12-Oct-2020 10:10
Send private message

Quinny:

 

No, in the circumstances you listed you still cannot take the goods. You do not own them. Even if a shareholder the company owns them not you. If you have revenues owed you are either a preferred or unsecured creditor. Same as wages and IRD are defined by law what happens. 

 

 

It's not actually stated in the article nor ERA decision that the laptops and office contents belong to NZTG. So it's *possible* that the laptops themselves have all along been the personal property of the 4 individuals.

 

More likely, I guess, the laptops and office contents belonged to the companies that the 4 people sold to NZTG, but which NZTG allegedly didn't pay for. The four then went on to cancel the purchase contracts for the companies. If it's legal to unilaterally cancel a contract for nonpayment, then the 4 own the companies and therefore the laptops.

 

It does seem that NZTG's data is on the laptops. however.

 

 


 
 
 

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).
freitasm
BDFL - Memuneh
79288 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator
ID Verified
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

  #2582900 12-Oct-2020 10:14
Send private message

frankv:

 

Quinny:

 

No, in the circumstances you listed you still cannot take the goods. You do not own them. Even if a shareholder the company owns them not you. If you have revenues owed you are either a preferred or unsecured creditor. Same as wages and IRD are defined by law what happens. 

 

 

It's not actually stated in the article nor ERA decision that the laptops and office contents belong to NZTG. So it's *possible* that the laptops themselves have all along been the personal property of the 4 individuals.

 

More likely, I guess, the laptops and office contents belonged to the companies that the 4 people sold to NZTG, but which NZTG allegedly didn't pay for. The four then went on to cancel the purchase contracts for the companies. If it's legal to unilaterally cancel a contract for nonpayment, then the 4 own the companies and therefore the laptops.

 

It does seem that NZTG's data is on the laptops. however.

 

 

Exactly. Because it all seems strange that the company went for an employee relations action instead of calling the police for theft (at least it doesn't seem reported anywhere).





Please support Geekzone by subscribing, or using one of our referral links: Quic Broadband (free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE) | Samsung | AliExpress | Wise | Sharesies | Hatch | GoodSync 


Geektastic
17943 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2582924 12-Oct-2020 10:40
Send private message

Without seeing the sale contract terms it is impossible to do more than guess. However, I am surprised that - if the principle concern is non-payment relating to the sale - the employees and former owners of the companies sold did not seek specific performance from the court for the sale contract default, rather than simply taking their toys and going home, as it were.






Lias
5589 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2583083 12-Oct-2020 12:46
Send private message

My personal opinion is that these 4 gentleman are quite probably morally in the right and were shafted by NZTG. Sadly I suspect that the law will assist in shafting them some more.





I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad, a Quic user, and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. If you use my Quic signup you can also use the code R570394EKGIZ8 for free setup.


Sounddude
I fix stuff!
1928 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
2degrees
Lifetime subscriber

  #2583091 12-Oct-2020 13:09
Send private message

The ERA document is a good read.

 

 

 

It looks like it all fell apart with NZTG not honoring its Sale and Purchase agreement.

 

The 4 respondents would have been much better off trying to get that agreement enforced.

 

Also note that some (atleast one of them anyway) of them frequent geekzone.

 

 

 

 


dejadeadnz
2394 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #2583340 12-Oct-2020 21:39
Send private message

freitasm:

 

Exactly. Because it all seems strange that the company went for an employee relations action instead of calling the police for theft (at least it doesn't seem reported anywhere).

 

 

The cops won't do anything for the reason I detailed on the first post of this page. The respondents appear to honestly believe that they have a claim of right to the items taken. An honest belief is enough to negative one of the essential elements to prove a theft charge - the fact that they may ultimately be legally wrong doesn't matter. 

 

 

 

 


evnafets
537 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2583431 13-Oct-2020 09:14
Send private message

Something else that confuses me right now. 

 

One of the theories being bandied around here is that the staff felt justified in taking their assets back and starting up a new business, because their companies had never actually been bought off them - and so the assets were actually their own, and their employment was null and void.

 

Why then submit letters of resignation?   Submitting a letter of resignation indicates that you believe you ARE employed there. 

 

 


BlueShift
1692 posts

Uber Geek


  #2583435 13-Oct-2020 09:28
Send private message

evnafets:

 

Something else that confuses me right now. 

 

One of the theories being bandied around here is that the staff felt justified in taking their assets back and starting up a new business, because their companies had never actually been bought off them - and so the assets were actually their own, and their employment was null and void.

 

Why then submit letters of resignation?   Submitting a letter of resignation indicates that you believe you ARE employed there. 

 

 

Probably the selling of the companies, and being employed by the new company were two separate actions. The sale of the companies is the point being argued, but they still signed on to the company as employees even if the sale of their old companies (and assets) fell through.


Dynamic
3867 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2583477 13-Oct-2020 10:17
Send private message

Wow..... I've just spotted this thread and read through it and the judgement.  That's a pretty ugly position to be in for everyone involved, and I'm very interested to hear how this turns out in time.

 

Based on what I have read, I suspect the respondents felt backed into a corner.  I hope they received solid advice before taking this action.  It appears that the employment agreements and the company sales issues being dealt with separately by different arms of our legal system won't make things easy.





“Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.” Douglas Adams

 

Referral links to services I use, really like, and may be rewarded if you sign up:
PocketSmith for budgeting and personal finance management.  A great Kiwi company.


1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic





News and reviews »

Air New Zealand Starts AI adoption with OpenAI
Posted 24-Jul-2025 16:00


eero Pro 7 Review
Posted 23-Jul-2025 12:07


BeeStation Plus Review
Posted 21-Jul-2025 14:21


eero Unveils New Wi-Fi 7 Products in New Zealand
Posted 21-Jul-2025 00:01


WiZ Introduces HDMI Sync Box and other Light Devices
Posted 20-Jul-2025 17:32


RedShield Enhances DDoS and Bot Attack Protection
Posted 20-Jul-2025 17:26


Seagate Ships 30TB Drives
Posted 17-Jul-2025 11:24


Oclean AirPump A10 Water Flosser Review
Posted 13-Jul-2025 11:05


Samsung Galaxy Z Fold7: Raising the Bar for Smartphones
Posted 10-Jul-2025 02:01


Samsung Galaxy Z Flip7 Brings New Edge-To-Edge FlexWindow
Posted 10-Jul-2025 02:01


Epson Launches New AM-C550Z WorkForce Enterprise printer
Posted 9-Jul-2025 18:22


Samsung Releases Smart Monitor M9
Posted 9-Jul-2025 17:46


Nearly Half of Older Kiwis Still Write their Passwords on Paper
Posted 9-Jul-2025 08:42


D-Link 4G+ Cat6 Wi-Fi 6 DWR-933M Mobile Hotspot Review
Posted 1-Jul-2025 11:34


Oppo A5 Series Launches With New Levels of Durability
Posted 30-Jun-2025 10:15









Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.