Big Bang Theory (no, not the TV series)

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#3020405 12-Jan-2023 12:02

tdgeek:

It makes sense. There is a Law of Conservation. You cannot create matter or remove it, it, whether that is energy or atoms or Elements, just moves to another form.

This breaks down with the Singularity. Was there a single dot that magically then contained all of the energy in the Universe, then it exploded? I.e. expanded rapidly. Or was it existing energy and matter from a Universe that collapsed?

The former is magic based on our boundary of knowledge. Or it may be a law of physics that we do not know about. There should be other Universes also

If the latter, a collapsed and reborn Universe, there should be others

It is erroneous to think of a singularity "exploding" Although the pattern of an explosion is similar to that of an expansion they are quite different. The singularity obeys the Law on Conservation, although infinitely compact its state of energy complies with the law. It exists therefore it is and as such complies. The expansion from the Singularity does not need to occur at the expense of another Universe or multiple Universes as they could coexist but in alternate space time, say a negative and positive state.

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#3020412 12-Jan-2023 12:16

MikeB4:

It is erroneous to think of a singularity "exploding" Although the pattern of an explosion is similar to that of an expansion they are quite different. The singularity obeys the Law on Conservation, although infinitely compact its state of energy complies with the law. It exists therefore it is and as such complies. The expansion from the Singularity does not need to occur at the expense of another Universe or multiple Universes as they could coexist but in alternate space time, say a negative and positive state.

I did say "then it exploded? I.e. expanded rapidly."

Where did the energy that was in the Singularity come from? Some say it came from nothing, that doesn't comply with the Law of Conservation. Or, it was already there. That makes more sense to me. How did it get there, was it always a dot of energy or did it become a dot, contracting from a larger situation?

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#3020427 12-Jan-2023 12:42

tdgeek:

I did say "then it exploded? I.e. expanded rapidly."

Where did the energy that was in the Singularity come from? Some say it came from nothing, that doesn't comply with the Law of Conservation. Or, it was already there. That makes more sense to me. How did it get there, was it always a dot of energy or did it become a dot, contracting from a larger situation?

What you are saying fits with my previous post regarding human thought. Humans need patterns and we need boundaries. Infinite is a concept that we struggle with, we need beginnings and ends therefore the Singularity to exist we must assign it a beginning. The Singularity does not need a point in time to become existing as its existence had been infinite.

We could add boundaries such as walls but that does not imply beginnings or ends. Think of over lapping space time as walls. If you cannot see over, around or under a wall it does not mean that nothing exists on the other side of the wall and that the Singularity can or cannot exist concurrently. The same applies to the current ongoing expansion of the Universe.

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#3020431 12-Jan-2023 12:53

MikeB4:

What you are saying fits with my previous post regarding human thought. Humans need patterns and we need boundaries. Infinite is a concept that we struggle with, we need beginnings and ends therefore the Singularity to exist we must assign it a beginning. The Singularity does not need a point in time to become existing as its existence had been infinite.

We could add boundaries such as walls but that does not imply beginnings or ends. Think of over lapping space time as walls. If you cannot see over, around or under a wall it does not mean that nothing exists on the other side of the wall and that the Singularity can or cannot exist concurrently. The same applies to the current ongoing expansion of the Universe.

Yes I agree with all that. My issue is that a singularity contains energy. How did that energy get there. As I mentioned earlier if its "magic" i.e. a Law that we do not know of, where nothing did turn to something, then it can happen again and again. Or if that energy was from another source, another occurrence, such as a collapsed Universe, then that can also occur again and agin, a cycle. Begs the question that the Universe is not the only one

On another issue, Prof Brian Cox says that when the Universe has expanded so much that there will be no light. As light has to travel too far from one Star to be illuminating the space from another point. And that eventually all Stars will end and cool. But what niggles me is he also said that Black Holes will fade away.Not sure why as they are dense, massive gravitation effect, so why would they fade away? The four rules of force still work, the only issue is distance as the Universe expands. So, it will be dark, and starts and planets still exist but are dark and cold. Black Holes exist but cannot be seen, but surely they will still exist?

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#3020436 12-Jan-2023 13:05

"On another issue, Prof Brian Cox says that when the Universe has expanded so much that there will be no light. As light has to travel too far from one Star to be illuminating the space from another point." That does not make sense. A star emitting light will still exist. Lets say I have a torch and shine the torch at a distant Exoplanet that you are on but you cannot see the light, my torch still exists. Stars/Suns are not heated by other stars/suns they are heated by their on reactors. Why would a Black hole fade away?

"Yes I agree with all that. My issue is that a singularity contains energy. How did that energy get there". The energy is there because it was always there.

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#3020438 12-Jan-2023 13:16

MikeB4:

"On another issue, Prof Brian Cox says that when the Universe has expanded so much that there will be no light. As light has to travel too far from one Star to be illuminating the space from another point." That does not make sense. A star emitting light will still exist. Lets say I have a torch and shine the torch at a distant Exoplanet that you are on but you cannot see the light, my torch still exists. Stars/Suns are not heated by other stars/suns they are heated by their on reactors. Why would a Black hole fade away?

"Yes I agree with all that. My issue is that a singularity contains energy. How did that energy get there". The energy is there because it was always there.

If the Star cools and effectively dies it wont emit light as its non functional. His view is that eventually all stars will cool and go dark. The fusion reactor will cease to run as it runs out of fuel. However doit all stars go supernova abut the ones that did might coalesce the gases and elements and begin over, but even then the new star would be smaller, ad eventually be one that runs out of fuel does not go supernova so it just cools and goes dark

No idea why or how a Black Hole would fade away but thats what he said and ive seen it mentioned elsewhere too

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#3020441 12-Jan-2023 13:26

Suns during their "alive" time discard their outer Coronial layers which are emitted into space and do this often during "alive" time and again. This material and energy is added back into the pool of building blocks for suns. The Universe is expanding and extrapolation of this implies that new suns and systems are being assembled.

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#3020442 12-Jan-2023 13:30

A black hole fades away by emitting Hawking radiation (basically photons). Eventually you end up with a universe devoid of matter with a bunch of photons. I believe this is called the 'heat death' of the universe. At that point space and time no longer exist, because there is nothing which can be influenced by space or time. If there is no space or time, it's a singularity.

Mike

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#3020445 12-Jan-2023 13:39

Black holes contain energy that is being contained by gravitational influence. If a Black hole fades away the gravitational influence would have ceased thus allowing the contained energy to continue on its journey. The heat death of a universe is in itself a contradiction of itself.

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#3020449 12-Jan-2023 13:46

MikeB4:

Black holes contain energy that is being contained by gravitational influence. If a Black hole fades away the gravitational influence would have ceased thus allowing the contained energy to continue on its journey. The heat death of a universe is in itself a contradiction of itself.

That energy is slowly leaking out as Hawking radiation. That's the hole point.

Mike

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#3020459 12-Jan-2023 14:20

MikeB4:

Suns during their "alive" time discard their outer Coronial layers which are emitted into space and do this often during "alive" time and again. This material and energy is added back into the pool of building blocks for suns. The Universe is expanding and extrapolation of this implies that new suns and systems are being assembled.

The below explains what happens. In the case of a supernova, yes I agree the building blocks will form a cloud and will coalesce into a new Star, but smaller as some particles will be blown away never to return. When our Sun expands and shrinks, there may not be enough matter to re coalesce I would expect, as a lot of the Sun still exists as a white dwarf and will be cooling. It may never reach fusion temperature again, plus the white dwarf will not be hydrogen and Helium anymore, so no fusion. (my thoughts not what Ive read). So, if only large stars can reform to new stars, it appears that stars will be fewer and fewer. And again, will there be enough hydrogen and helium from one star that ran out of these fusion elements? Over eons, the gaps between stars will be so great that the star will have to explode and re form on its own each time. Unsure if thats very likely if some mass is blown away, leaving a smaller star to reform. But its interesting stuff.

Nuclear reactions at the centre (or core) of a star provides energy which makes it shine brightly. This stage is called the 'main sequence'. The exact lifetime of a star depends very much on its size. Very massive stars use up their fuel quickly. This means they may only last a few hundred thousand years. Smaller stars use up fuel more slowly so will shine for several billion years.

Eventually, the hydrogen which powers the nuclear reactions inside a star begins to run out. The star then enters the final phases of its lifetime. All stars will expand, cool and change colour to become a red giant. What happens next depends on how massive the star is.

A smaller star, like the Sun, will gradually cool down and stop glowing. During these changes it will go through the planetary nebula phase, and white dwarf phase. After many thousands of millions of years it will stop glowing and become a black dwarf.

A massive star experiences a much more energetic and violent end. It explodes as a supernova. This scatters materials from inside the star across space. This material can collect in nebulae and form the next generation of stars. After the dust clears, a very dense neutron star is left behind. These spin rapidly and can give off streams of radiation, known as pulsars.

If the star is especially massive, when it explodes it forms a black hole.

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#3020461 12-Jan-2023 14:20

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

Black holes contain energy that is being contained by gravitational influence. If a Black hole fades away the gravitational influence would have ceased thus allowing the contained energy to continue on its journey. The heat death of a universe is in itself a contradiction of itself.

That energy is slowly leaking out as Hawking radiation. That's the hole point.

I am not disagreeing with you it just seems to be a contradiction, the Universe has many apparent contradictions. They are only contradictions when we apply our current rules and constraints. Doing this is like seeing a piece of string poking out of a hole and asking how long is that piece of string.

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#3020475 12-Jan-2023 14:45

It's only a contradiction because our science is so primitive when it comes to these sort of things, ie they have no idea what's going on

Hands up who's been within 1600 light years from a black hole?

the data you're studying is 1600 years old. it might have been blown up by the Enterprise 1599 years ago for all you know.

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#3020476 12-Jan-2023 14:49

Batman:

It's only a contradiction because our science is so primitive when it comes to these sort of things, ie they have no idea what's going on

Hands up who's been within 1600 light years from a black hole?

the data you're studying is 1600 years old. it might have been blown up by the Enterprise 1599 years ago for all you know.

Wouldn't be the Enterprise only the Borg do that sort of crap,😀

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#3020481 12-Jan-2023 15:12

This is an assimilation free thread! :-)

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