CGA. Is it fair?

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#1112732 21-Aug-2014 11:43

trig42:
BTR:
Jase2985: heres a good example of why the we need the CGA

there are 2 different house holds
the first is a married couple
the second is a married couple with 4 kids under 5

they both buy the same washing machine from the same shop. the first couple do 2 loads of washing a week, the second couple is doing a load a day and 2 ion a saturday. the second couple is using their machine 4x as much as the first couple yet the manufactures warranty only covers both couples for 2 years. the likely hood of the first couples machine failing in the warranty period is very very low. where as the second couple have a higher probability as they do 4x the amount of washing.

same deal with the laptop thing, some people use it every day others use it on the odd occasion. the more you use something the higher the chance it will fail.

notice its use that generally causes things to fail, not time :) hence why the CGA is good as it states the item should last a reasonable amount of time with reasonable use.

I like your example but shouldn't the family have bought a larger washing machine?

Example, Married couple buy 5KG machine and family buys 9KG machine.

Going by what you mentioned the families washing machine won't last as long if they are using it 4 x more than the couple BUT they are still getting an reasonable amount of use out of it albeit in a shorter length of time. The families washing machine isn't going to fail within a year and if it does its covered by the manufacturers warranty.

Maybe the family with kids cannot afford the 9kg washer?

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect a family washing machine to last 2+ years (in fact, I'd say 3-5 years).

F&P can query their machine to see how many loads have been done. When I was selling whiteware and did a course at East Tamaki they told us they had refused a warranty repair on a Smart Drive because when they did the diagnostics they found it had done the equivalent of 12 washes a day for the year and a half the customer had it. Turns out the customer had been running a laundry service from home. I'm sure all these modern machines must have some similar way for the manufacturer/service tech to tell how it has been used. That would be a lot fairer way of determining reasonable wear and tear.

Well, it would determine use with actual data, rather than fairness or reasonableness.

Many many lawyers have made many many dollars arguing the meaning of the word 'reasonable'!

bazzer

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#1112743 21-Aug-2014 12:17

KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

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#1112751 21-Aug-2014 12:27

bazzer:
KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

It is nothing to do with extended warranties, it has to do with goods and services being of acceptable quality, and NZ not having poor quality products dumped in NZ, and companies that don't stand behind the products and services they sell. Extended warranties are usually up to a maximum of 3-5 years, and you can only purchase it on some products. While the CGA applies to most things, including services. Do you expect to pay for an extended warranty each time you get a trade person in to do work?

bazzer

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#1112754 21-Aug-2014 12:37

mattwnz:
bazzer:
KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

It is nothing to do with extended warranties, it has to do with goods and services being of acceptable quality, and NZ not having poor quality products dumped in NZ, and companies that don't stand behind the products and services they sell. Extended warranties are usually up to a maximum of 3-5 years, and you can only purchase it on some products. While the CGA applies to most things, including services. Do you expect to pay for an extended warranty each time you get a trade person in to do work?

I suppose I should've put "extended warranty" in inverted commas. Call it an "acceptable quality tax" if you like that better? I'm happy to pay more to get goods or services of decent quality (i.e. good quality appliances/a honourable tradesperson). I'd rather not pay (a little bit) more so that people that won't do the same are protected from themselves and/or less scrupulous retailers/service providers. While I am paying more, I'm happy to take advantage of the CGA, of course.

If poor quality products were dumped in NZ, I just wouldn't buy them.

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#1112791 21-Aug-2014 12:55

bazzer:
KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

Why do you think NZ should be different? Surely all countries we might compare ourselves to have consumer rights broadly similar to ours (at least).

bazzer

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#1112795 21-Aug-2014 13:08

Geektastic:
bazzer:
KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

Why do you think NZ should be different? Surely all countries we might compare ourselves to have consumer rights broadly similar to ours (at least).

I've no idea what goes on in other countries. What makes you say I think NZ should be different? I don't think I've said that.

Geektastic

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#1112799 21-Aug-2014 13:14

bazzer:
Geektastic:
bazzer:
KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

Why do you think NZ should be different? Surely all countries we might compare ourselves to have consumer rights broadly similar to ours (at least).

I've no idea what goes on in other countries. What makes you say I think NZ should be different? I don't think I've said that.

Well you appear to be suggesting our statutory warranty policies should be less good than is relatively common elsewhere. Personally I would like to see them strengthened in a new 'consumer is king' environment where the onus on warranty costs transfers to the manufacturer with the retailer acting as agent but without financial liability (assuming that they do not now get reimbursed by the manufactures of course).

On a wider note it must also be environmentally sound to keep appliances etc running as long as possible rather than have them end up filling dumps after just a few years when they could run for much longer.

Tradepub

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bazzer

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#1112803 21-Aug-2014 13:18

Geektastic: Well you appear to be suggesting our statutory warranty policies should be less good than is relatively common elsewhere.

Really? Where?

networkn

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#1112807 21-Aug-2014 13:22

One of the things that has not really been mentioned..

15 years ago, warranties were honoured for longer and with less trouble, however items cost a lot more and margins were considerably better. I don't believe it's reasonable to expect that the cost of a washing machine that cost $3500 15+ years ago (Gentle Annie by F&P) which is now $1200 or less, should be expected to last as long or be as reliable. I also think given how razer
sharp margins are, that it's reasonable to expect that retailers be as willing to "take it on the chin".

I don't have an issue with the CGA, but I do think the consumer is being over represented and is able to get unreasonable demands met.

I do also think the CGA guidelines for reason are so vague as to cause undue conflict. A $599 washing machine should not be expected to last as long as a $2500 washing machine

mattwnz

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#1112809 21-Aug-2014 13:28

networkn: One of the things that has not really been mentioned..

15 years ago, warranties were honoured for longer and with less trouble, however items cost a lot more and margins were considerably better. I don't believe it's reasonable to expect that the cost of a washing machine that cost $3500 15+ years ago (Gentle Annie by F&P) which is now $1200 or less, should be expected to last as long or be as reliable. I also think given how razer
sharp margins are, that it's reasonable to expect that retailers be as willing to "take it on the chin".

I don't have an issue with the CGA, but I do think the consumer is being over represented and is able to get unreasonable demands met.

I do also think the CGA guidelines for reason are so vague as to cause undue conflict. A $599 washing machine should not be expected to last as long as a $2500 washing machine

One thing though you don't mention is that back then people didn't buy as much stuff, so even though retailers may have been making higher margins on some things, they weren't selling as much of it. People may have had only one TV, and didn't replace things so often. TVs back then people kept for 15plus years. These days people tend to replace them every 5 years and may have 3 to 5 tvs per house. Retailers these days also make a lot of their money by upselling on very high margin things like headphones, cases, and cables.

I do think some people do take advantage of the CGA, in that they maybe using it for commercial purposes , but only declaring it was purchased for household usage.

networkn

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#1112812 21-Aug-2014 13:29

mattwnz:
networkn: One of the things that has not really been mentioned..

15 years ago, warranties were honoured for longer and with less trouble, however items cost a lot more and margins were considerably better. I don't believe it's reasonable to expect that the cost of a washing machine that cost $3500 15+ years ago (Gentle Annie by F&P) which is now $1200 or less, should be expected to last as long or be as reliable. I also think given how razer
sharp margins are, that it's reasonable to expect that retailers be as willing to "take it on the chin".

I don't have an issue with the CGA, but I do think the consumer is being over represented and is able to get unreasonable demands met.

I do also think the CGA guidelines for reason are so vague as to cause undue conflict. A $599 washing machine should not be expected to last as long as a $2500 washing machine

One thing though you don't mention is that back then people didn't buy as much stuff, so even though retailers may have been making higher margins on some things, they weren't selling as much of it. People may have had only one TV, and didn't replace things so often. TVs back then people kept for 15plus years. These days people tend to replace them every 5 years and may have 3 to 5 tvs per house. Retailers these days also make a lot of their money by upselling on very high margin things like headphones, cases, and cables.

None of which matters when you take individual price, vs individual item warranty.

MikeB4

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#1112815 21-Aug-2014 13:32

bazzer:
KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

That is just pure nonsense, you opt out if you like and whenever a product prematurely packs up on you buy a new one or pay for the repair, I will use the very good legislation that those before you lobbied for.

mattwnz

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#1112822 21-Aug-2014 13:46

networkn:
mattwnz:
networkn: One of the things that has not really been mentioned..

15 years ago, warranties were honoured for longer and with less trouble, however items cost a lot more and margins were considerably better. I don't believe it's reasonable to expect that the cost of a washing machine that cost $3500 15+ years ago (Gentle Annie by F&P) which is now $1200 or less, should be expected to last as long or be as reliable. I also think given how razer
sharp margins are, that it's reasonable to expect that retailers be as willing to "take it on the chin".

I don't have an issue with the CGA, but I do think the consumer is being over represented and is able to get unreasonable demands met.

I do also think the CGA guidelines for reason are so vague as to cause undue conflict. A $599 washing machine should not be expected to last as long as a $2500 washing machine

One thing though you don't mention is that back then people didn't buy as much stuff, so even though retailers may have been making higher margins on some things, they weren't selling as much of it. People may have had only one TV, and didn't replace things so often. TVs back then people kept for 15plus years. These days people tend to replace them every 5 years and may have 3 to 5 tvs per house. Retailers these days also make a lot of their money by upselling on very high margin things like headphones, cases, and cables.

None of which matters when you take individual price, vs individual item warranty.

It has to be looked as a whole though, as the cost for an individual sale in terms of the cost and admin required may vary a lot. They have to take the good with the bad, and look at it as an average. Only a small percentage of goods sold would ever have a CGA claim, most faults should be covered by the manufacturers warranty. Also the cost for CGA claims should be covered by the manufacturer, not the retailer. The only cost to the retailer should be their time dealing with it.

These retailers are big boys, so I wouldn't feel too sorry for them, and noone forces them to be in the retail game. Also the CGA has been around for 20 years, so nothing really has changed, apart from perhaps consumers knowledge that it even existed.

mattwnz

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#1112838 21-Aug-2014 14:10

networkn:
I do also think the CGA guidelines for reason are so vague as to cause undue conflict. A $599 washing machine should not be expected to last as long as a $2500 washing machine

If those prices were the RRP, then a $599 washing machine wouldn't generally be expected to last as long as $2500 machine. But then again you don't know if one of the companies RRPs are highly inflated, so they can give good discounts. What if that $2500 machine had been discounted down to $599. It would be the same quality as the $2500 machine, so should be a lot better than a machine and last longer than a $599 RRP machine. So it is more about the value, than the price actally paid at the till. I think the actual brand name though may tell you more about he quality. I mean a Sony would be considered a premium brand and last longer, while a retailers own house brand probably isn't going to be as good quality.

mattwnz

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#1112839 21-Aug-2014 14:13

KiwiNZ:
bazzer:
KiwiNZ: I picked up my iMac this morning and it's fixed thanks to the CGA.

I have always believed that the CGA is one of the best pieces of legislation passed in the Beehive. I can recall a few years back one of our washing machines packed up a few weeks out of warranty and there was nothing we could do. The retailer didn't want to know and only offered us a new one at retail price, the manufacturer said "not our problem"

So I guess all those who think the CGA is wrong I gather you want to return to those days where consumers were just told to sod off when things went wrong.

Not at all, but just don't fool yourself that you got these rights for free. Surely it could be up to the individual to decide if they want to pay for an extended warranty or not?

That is just pure nonsense, you opt out if you like and whenever a product prematurely packs up on you buy a new one or pay for the repair, I will use the very good legislation that those before you lobbied for.

Plus people can buy extended warranties now if they choose to, but they aren't very widespread. But I don't think we really want to be creating another industry to take our money. Essentially extended warranties are insurance policies, and insurers are already making a killing in NZ.

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