Horrible Business UFB experience

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networkn

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#803291 21-Apr-2013 21:20

Yah I wondered about that too.

Hardly instilled confidence in me.

onefibre

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#803328 21-Apr-2013 21:47

Hi, good point and I should have mentioned this in the post. I received confirmation from ASO, the customer, to disclose the information i provided before I posted it.

chevrolux

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#803337 21-Apr-2013 22:02

I thought the whole idea behind the 'Sprint' plans was that you had a burst pool aswell. 'The customer will never see speeds below the subscribed CIR but has the ability to use the burst pool' or words to that affect is what your site says. I would have thought with a 100Mb tail the 'burst pool' would be quite substantial meaning customers (like Robert) can enjoy high speed across to the States at non-peak times when required. I wouldn't have thought there would be a noticeable difference in speeds internationally just because the 'Sprint' plan dictates it.

I like Onefibre's model not charging for traffic but was sort of hoping the 'burst pool' as actually quite a usable resource. Clearly it isn't if even a website seems slugish compared to the DSL connection.

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#803340 21-Apr-2013 22:09

Datacaps are still applicable to control usage where the user isn't paying for bandwidth directly. It's like electricity I guess where you could build your own generation and rent transmission capacity... but no one would do that?

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networkn

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#803341 21-Apr-2013 22:12

chevrolux: I thought the whole idea behind the 'Sprint' plans was that you had a burst pool aswell. 'The customer will never see speeds below the subscribed CIR but has the ability to use the burst pool' or words to that affect is what your site says. I would have thought with a 100Mb tail the 'burst pool' would be quite substantial meaning customers (like Robert) can enjoy high speed across to the States at non-peak times when required. I wouldn't have thought there would be a noticeable difference in speeds internationally just because the 'Sprint' plan dictates it.

I like Onefibre's model not charging for traffic but was sort of hoping the 'burst pool' as actually quite a usable resource. Clearly it isn't if even a website seems slugish compared to the DSL connection.

I am wondering if they are artificially limiting to the CIR or something else during business hours, though I notice the customer emailed to say it was a router issue, so perhaps after that they were getting normal speeds.

I have 2 customers on UFB with other providers (Similar size to OneFibre I am guessing) and their speeds are awesome, very little change night to day.

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#803343 21-Apr-2013 22:16

My previous employer (left in 2009) was on a CIR+burst plan from Knossos (ISP brand now on.net.nz). It worked really well -- we had a 256k CIR and I don't remember it being slow. Certainly we never got shaped all the way down to 256k at peak times. They did a clever deal where we had one (later two) links in to the building, then the tenants on our floor (later two floors) plugged into a switch attached to a Knossos router, so we all had "our own" internet connections, but got to share the cost of the araneo/citylink pipe supplying the building.

With this sort of service, a lot hinges on how good the speed is at peak times. Knossos did a good job of managing this, we had no complaints. With such a tiny international CIR you really need to quantify how bad peak times can get. No customer will be happy if they're shaped all the way down to 64k international, especially if they're paying several hundred dollars a month for the privilege. Even Slingshot Unlimited isn't that slow!

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#803347 21-Apr-2013 22:23

Well the CIR is the guaranteed speed, and normally you tag packets like voip so they get priority, or RDP or whatever you want to ensure arrives first etc, I wouldn't expect any connection in NZ to ever approach being that slow even at peak.

I believe that the explanation was that the issue was the customers router but unless the OP posts back or the business that was provided the service chimes in, it might be hard to get a clear picture.

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robertjpayne

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#803361 21-Apr-2013 23:01

I'll post a bit more information hopefully a bit clearer since I've had time to reflect. Also I mean nothing against ASO they were an awesome office space!

The problem I had with OneFibre was the speeds and the cost associated. Their engineer support was great and my stupidity for not plugging my computer in the wall to eliminate the router as a cause of slowdown issue. The router issue came out due to a double DHCP issue and my router being incapable of simply bridging the connection. The fix only applied to uplink speeds not download speeds.

Again I stress the importance here is that people explore different ISPs and providers before choosing one. This goes for Residential and Business connections.

Let's do a little comparison between OneFibre and HD. Both offer carrier grade CIR/PIR with no data caps. OneFibre does not mention their PIR contention ratio where as HD's is 10:1.

For $100 or so:

OneFibre - 64kbits CIR / Variable PIR ($89)
HD - 2mbits CIR / No PIR ($80)
HD - 2mbits CIR / 5mbits PIR ($100)

For $300 or so:

OneFibre - 1mbits CIR / Variable PIR ($320)
HD - 5mbits CIR / No PIR ($200)
HD - 5mbits CIR / 10 PIR ($250)

For $1000 or so:

OneFibre - 7mbits CIR / Variable PIR ($1070)
HD - 25mbits CIR / No PIR ($1000)
HD - 20mbits CIR / 50 PIR ($900)

These prices are just for your international transit. You also have to take into account the base line cost. OneFibre doesn't publish these and I'm unsure what they are but HD's business 100/50 line is $179.

In my experience OneFibre's PIR during the day on Sprint 1 was around 2-3mbits down and 3-6 mbits up to multiple US destinations using iperf and other tests ( as well as speed tests ). Off hours (before 8:30 after 6:30 ) these jumped to around 20-30mbits down and 5-10mbits up.

Because the bulk of OneFibre's speed is PIR your true internet speed is always conditional and speculative. This isn't reliable and a lot of trust is put into the ISP to ensure they have more PIR than CIR though they are in no way obligated to do so - though I will admit they were not being dodgy and making PIR extremely slow.

Every business has it's own needs, but I'd go for saying most could put that money towards hard committed rates instead of speculative peak rates and enjoy stable speeds regardless of time of day.

Side note OneFibre never requested my permission to publish personal email and as far as I know ASO does not own my emails -- though I don't really care and thank you for removing my email address.

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#803363 21-Apr-2013 23:05

So even after your router issue was resolved, during the day you could only get <10Mbps?

robertjpayne

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#803376 21-Apr-2013 23:27

networkn: So even after your router issue was resolved, during the day you could only get <10Mbps?

Correct international speeds during the day were <10MBps.

insane

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#803378 21-Apr-2013 23:29

While this case is special due to the number of parties involved, I can see these kind of issues creeping up time and time again as the UFB product spec has many many variables in play which determines end speeds.

Getting your head around all the different places where contention ratios could affect you is hard enough for providers to understand, let alone end users.

I suspect benchmarks such as truenet.co.nz will start be become more meaningful over time.

onefibre

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#806781 28-Apr-2013 17:06

Hi all, a few answers to questions above:
-In relation to the Sprint Plan 'Starter' this is the one ASO originally opted for, it has no CIR, its communicated to the customer and a reminder that Sprint plans only apply to international data. There are many customers where this is an appropriate plan where a user has multi national office, data replication, access to a locally hosted cloud server, VOIP, etc and international speeds are a low requirement, remember the customer pays $29 for this plan. This plan also has a 'burst' ability just like all Sprint plans except it has no CIR and the lowest priority but is still unlimited flat rate like all plans.

-insane made a great point regarding the various areas of contention. When a business customer through either a reseller or wholesaler (we don’t sell direct) has a number of choices. First is contention on UFB and any modifications required on upload/download CIR for UFB, secondly the backhaul service (if outside of Auckland), again contention CIR & PIR, then national/Telecom/Telstra peering and lastly international which is much of the discussion in this thread. For a techie all of these bits would be second nature and a simple experience in selecting the right plan. However a business who believes the internet is just like power and flicking a switch for this 'Ultra Fast fibre network' is far from the truth and I believe there will be lots of disappointed customers whose expectations are not matched with the appropriate 'bits' that make up UFB.

In summary its our wholesalers & resellers jobs to learn about the customers business, ask the appropriate questions and lastly but together the correct plan to suit the customers requirements. As the first to connect to Chorus's UFB network, first to connect a business customer and have the most number of business circuits with Chorus I can tell you the variation of what business expect, need and get is extremely varied.

Robert I think you are totally correct that people need to shop around and ask these good questions around contention ratio's/CIR/PIR/Backhaul/SLA's/redundancy, etc to ensure the UFB roll out is a success.

Zeon

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#806783 28-Apr-2013 17:11

robertjpayne: I'll post a bit more information hopefully a bit clearer since I've had time to reflect. Also I mean nothing against ASO they were an awesome office space!

The problem I had with OneFibre was the speeds and the cost associated. Their engineer support was great and my stupidity for not plugging my computer in the wall to eliminate the router as a cause of slowdown issue. The router issue came out due to a double DHCP issue and my router being incapable of simply bridging the connection. The fix only applied to uplink speeds not download speeds.

Again I stress the importance here is that people explore different ISPs and providers before choosing one. This goes for Residential and Business connections.

Let's do a little comparison between OneFibre and HD. Both offer carrier grade CIR/PIR with no data caps. OneFibre does not mention their PIR contention ratio where as HD's is 10:1.

For $100 or so:

OneFibre - 64kbits CIR / Variable PIR ($89)
HD - 2mbits CIR / No PIR ($80)
HD - 2mbits CIR / 5mbits PIR ($100)

For $300 or so:

OneFibre - 1mbits CIR / Variable PIR ($320)
HD - 5mbits CIR / No PIR ($200)
HD - 5mbits CIR / 10 PIR ($250)

For $1000 or so:

OneFibre - 7mbits CIR / Variable PIR ($1070)
HD - 25mbits CIR / No PIR ($1000)
HD - 20mbits CIR / 50 PIR ($900)

These prices are just for your international transit. You also have to take into account the base line cost. OneFibre doesn't publish these and I'm unsure what they are but HD's business 100/50 line is $179.

In my experience OneFibre's PIR during the day on Sprint 1 was around 2-3mbits down and 3-6 mbits up to multiple US destinations using iperf and other tests ( as well as speed tests ). Off hours (before 8:30 after 6:30 ) these jumped to around 20-30mbits down and 5-10mbits up.

Because the bulk of OneFibre's speed is PIR your true internet speed is always conditional and speculative. This isn't reliable and a lot of trust is put into the ISP to ensure they have more PIR than CIR though they are in no way obligated to do so - though I will admit they were not being dodgy and making PIR extremely slow.

Every business has it's own needs, but I'd go for saying most could put that money towards hard committed rates instead of speculative peak rates and enjoy stable speeds regardless of time of day.

Side note OneFibre never requested my permission to publish personal email and as far as I know ASO does not own my emails -- though I don't really care and thank you for removing my email address.

Just remember to compare "apples with apples". yes HD are very cheap but as the saying goes "you get what you pay for" I've never been their customer directly but had dealings with them. Check this forum for more information about them.

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Laurence

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#823848 22-May-2013 22:44

Always an interesting debate.

First is to compare apples with apples.
The plans from HD that you are quoting are for 'RAW' international pipes. This is from HD's core to the internet (as most users of it will be datacentre customers). You will need to cover backhaul and tail rates on top of that. As i understand it OneFibre's prices are the costs landed at the customers site. It is probably costing quite a bit in backhaul to get CIR from a site to the core.

If we assume $30 per 1mbit CIR (international only) wholesale cost and $15 per mbit national CIR.
Sprint 1 (64kb CIR) $89. This would equate to about 2mbit international and 2mbit national (discounting any profit). As it appears that OneFiber only sell CIR it would be safe to guess that most people only buy just what they need. I would guess that your speeds are about on par with what would be expected. Datacaps are used by larger ISP's to make people self limit the speeds uses to hide the over subscription that is happening.

There is nothing wrong with OneFibre's model (though i think it is a bit pricey), its just might not have been the best fit for this site. It sounds like someone was trying to get away data caps as they had no way to work out which tenant was using it all. A better solution then buying international CIR would have been to put in a muilt-tenant break out and meter each tenant or to buy an unlimited standard grade connection and try your luck.

On a different note i have had tin in HD's Datacentre for almost 2 years now and have had no issues at all (I started just after they dumped Orcon). There has been 1 outage i can remember that was a direct result of failure of HD equipment and that was about 10-15min. Aside from that every other issue i can remember were not HD specific but more general issues.

As the above says you get want you pay for, but if you are buying business grade or CIR services you need to understand the costs and impacts.

-Laurence

EDIT: (spelling) apear is for eating

webwat

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#825301 25-May-2013 19:12

Laurence: EDIT: (spelling) apear is for eating

You could also compare apear with a apple lol.

Well the whole name and shame flavour turned into an oops it was my fault afterall... I think the ISP had a right to defend himself and has done so responsibly. Didn't sound right anyway, contention ratios do actually work better than most people imagine and a 5:1 would usually be pretty good compared to the 50:1 international bandwidth that is probably on my home ADSL.

Also a lesson for building managers and internet resellers, to remember that faults are not always on the provider side so its worth eliminating potential problems with end user equipment before making assumptions about harder to find faults further up in the network.

Can I ask what kind of router was in the office? The only reason I can think of for using a router without an ethernet WAN port is that somebody had tried to put an ADSL router onto the building LAN, instead of using an ethernet router for what is obviously an ethernet network.

Time to find a new industry!

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