Base Fibre plans get Faster

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NonprayingMantis

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#847208 29-Jun-2013 18:38

TwoSeven:
sbiddle: I find it funny that this has suddenly made the news when Chorus announced their 50/10 plan a few months ago.

The reality is upstream of more than 10 isn't a great deal of use to most people, but a 50Mbps service for not much more than 30 is an appealing entry level product.

What research did you do to confirm that an upstream better than 10 isn't any use to 'most' people?

Do you really need research to tell you that??

How about you just tell us which of the multitude of mainstream services will be materially different in such a fashion that most people will care when they have faster than 10mbps upload?

Skype? Nope, even for video it uses way less than that
Video streaming? Nope, that's all download
File storage? Maybe, but a) most people don't do remote file storage and b) it's very rare that syncing your files to the cloud is absolutely time critical that you need a faster speed than 10Mbps
Gaming? Nope. Maybe if you are hosting multiple servers, but even then most people don't do that.
Uploading to YouTube? Sure it will help, but again, most people don't do this and the ones that do generally don't need their videos to be uploaded instantly

Waht else?

1080p

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#847212 29-Jun-2013 18:55

NonprayingMantis:
TwoSeven:
sbiddle: I find it funny that this has suddenly made the news when Chorus announced their 50/10 plan a few months ago.

The reality is upstream of more than 10 isn't a great deal of use to most people, but a 50Mbps service for not much more than 30 is an appealing entry level product.

What research did you do to confirm that an upstream better than 10 isn't any use to 'most' people?

Do you really need research to tell you that??

How about you just tell us which of the multitude of mainstream services will be materially different in such a fashion that most people will care when they have faster than 10mbps upload?

Skype? Nope, even for video it uses way less than that
Video streaming? Nope, that's all download
File storage? Maybe, but a) most people don't do remote file storage and b) it's very rare that syncing your files to the cloud is absolutely time critical that you need a faster speed than 10Mbps
Gaming? Nope. Maybe if you are hosting multiple servers, but even then most people don't do that.
Uploading to YouTube? Sure it will help, but again, most people don't do this and the ones that do generally don't need their videos to be uploaded instantly

Waht else?

All of these are true individually. But when two or more of the above is happening simultaneously then better upstream is critical.

sbiddle

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#847224 29-Jun-2013 19:33

TwoSeven:
sbiddle: I find it funny that this has suddenly made the news when Chorus announced their 50/10 plan a few months ago.

The reality is upstream of more than 10 isn't a great deal of use to most people, but a 50Mbps service for not much more than 30 is an appealing entry level product.

What research did you do to confirm that an upstream better than 10 isn't any use to 'most' people?

Research? How about the real world reality that I deploy services to customers and have a large number of customers in apartment buildings that either have high speed symmetrical or high speed aysmmetrical plans, all with a minimum of 10Mbps upstream. Many customers have had 20Mbps upstream for 2+ years and use barely a fraction of that.

Unless you're a content generator the net is an asymmetrical place, hence the reason why the PHY layer of every mass market delivery technology out there (ADSL, VDSL and GPON) are all asymmetrical.

TwoSeven

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#847226 29-Jun-2013 19:45

The reason I asked the question in my previous post is often an opinion is based on ones Weltanschauung (its a German word that means World View). I don't have a problem with that as forming an opinion based on ones knowledge of how we think things might work is a fundamental thing. :)

I challenged the post because I think the world view may have been potentially limited. I had the opinion that the poster was looking at their own usage and potentially extrapolating that to what others needs might be based on their current knowledge of the technology. It is like in the 19th century where a person that had never used a telephone trying to conceptualise why people might need one. Yet we know now from hind-sight and experience of usage what that benefit actually is.

Perhaps the statement of limiting upstream data might hold true if the internet connection point is only used by one person who connects to an upstream content provider to perform a singular task, but I don't think in the grander scheme of things, that's the way things work, neither do I think at the end of the day, that is how the internet was designed to work. :)

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mercutio

1392 posts

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#847370 30-Jun-2013 13:19

sbiddle:
TwoSeven:
sbiddle: I find it funny that this has suddenly made the news when Chorus announced their 50/10 plan a few months ago.

The reality is upstream of more than 10 isn't a great deal of use to most people, but a 50Mbps service for not much more than 30 is an appealing entry level product.

What research did you do to confirm that an upstream better than 10 isn't any use to 'most' people?

Research? How about the real world reality that I deploy services to customers and have a large number of customers in apartment buildings that either have high speed symmetrical or high speed aysmmetrical plans, all with a minimum of 10Mbps upstream. Many customers have had 20Mbps upstream for 2+ years and use barely a fraction of that.

Unless you're a content generator the net is an asymmetrical place, hence the reason why the PHY layer of every mass market delivery technology out there (ADSL, VDSL and GPON) are all asymmetrical.

then there's no harm for raising the upload limit so people can make use of it when they need it.

if you send a 4 megabyte photo to someone over skype and it takes 2 seconds instead of 4 seconds that's a significant difference imo. if you upload a 4 gig movie and it takes 500 seconds instead of 1000 seconds it's less of a diference, because you still have to wait ages either way.

i'd rather see the upload limit raised further.

the limitations on adsl and vdsl are outdated. dialup modems were always symmetric up to 33.6k, and only went assymetric at 56k. and still less of an download bias compared to adsl.

plambrechtsen

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#849021 4-Jul-2013 00:48

mercutio:
sbiddle:
TwoSeven:
sbiddle: I find it funny that this has suddenly made the news when Chorus announced their 50/10 plan a few months ago.

The reality is upstream of more than 10 isn't a great deal of use to most people, but a 50Mbps service for not much more than 30 is an appealing entry level product.

What research did you do to confirm that an upstream better than 10 isn't any use to 'most' people?

Research? How about the real world reality that I deploy services to customers and have a large number of customers in apartment buildings that either have high speed symmetrical or high speed aysmmetrical plans, all with a minimum of 10Mbps upstream. Many customers have had 20Mbps upstream for 2+ years and use barely a fraction of that.

Unless you're a content generator the net is an asymmetrical place, hence the reason why the PHY layer of every mass market delivery technology out there (ADSL, VDSL and GPON) are all asymmetrical.

then there's no harm for raising the upload limit so people can make use of it when they need it.

if you send a 4 megabyte photo to someone over skype and it takes 2 seconds instead of 4 seconds that's a significant difference imo. if you upload a 4 gig movie and it takes 500 seconds instead of 1000 seconds it's less of a diference, because you still have to wait ages either way.

i'd rather see the upload limit raised further.

the limitations on adsl and vdsl are outdated. dialup modems were always symmetric up to 33.6k, and only went assymetric at 56k. and still less of an download bias compared to adsl.

Erm, but if you raise the upstream it completely changes how you dimension your GPON network and how you manage the backhaul on your network.. Since it's only a single piece of fibre going into your ONT and the light is going in both directions down the one strand of fibre.

It's certainly not "flick of the switch and life is dandy" and as Steve rightfully said, only content creators need higher upstream, the VAST majority of customers don't need any higher than 1mb. So 10mb they would never reach even 10% saturation.

myfullflavour

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#849029 4-Jul-2013 03:54

surfisup1000: While extra options are appreciated I would first like an ISP so I can get UFB in the first place.

If you are in Tauranga you are somewhat spoilt for choice, I don't see what you complaining about?

National providers aside, you've got the following local providers to choose from:

- Us (Full Flavour)
- Trustpower Kinect
- EOL
- Netsmart

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mercutio

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#849136 4-Jul-2013 10:44

plambrechtsen:

Erm, but if you raise the upstream it completely changes how you dimension your GPON network and how you manage the backhaul on your network.. Since it's only a single piece of fibre going into your ONT and the light is going in both directions down the one strand of fibre.

It's certainly not "flick of the switch and life is dandy" and as Steve rightfully said, only content creators need higher upstream, the VAST majority of customers don't need any higher than 1mb. So 10mb they would never reach even 10% saturation.

When you have the bandwidth available it opens up options that just don't exist at lower bitrates. There is certainly things I can't even do on 1 megabit upload. Like if I want to upload 300gb of data, I wouldn't even try on a DSL connection.

You can't upload video reasonably on 1 megabit. You can't store data files remotely, text is fine. You can't share a 1 megabit upload with other users without easily hitting congestion issues.

One user using dropbox, or uploading to youtube, or sending large attachments in email or sending files over skype can severely degrade the connection.

It's also not really a question of "need", as most people don't "need" anything more than adsl to be able to browse trademe, visit web sites etc.

And I don't think having single duplex at one point of the network is a reasonable excuse. 4G LTE is the same, and does much higher upload speeds. That said the Vodafone network here does about 1000kbit down 100kbit up, and the 2degrees network about 3x that.

In the end when you limit content production to only people who pay large amounts of money you are creating a situation where you are artificially limiting the creation of content, which is going against the trend that's been happening recently. It used to be that newspapers would spread news, but now everyone can. Now a lot of breaking news happens over twitter and facebook, and although most of it's text, if you want real time video, you want real time upload speeds that can match.

And although most video now days is still 720p, there are new higher resolution standards coming, and compression improvements can't keep up - and bitrate is going to have to rise. Youtube already supports 1440p and higher resolutions, and although most content on it now is professionals or captures of games, the field is moving quickly, and in the next few years it's very likely that resolution is going to jump up after stagnating for years. (it even went down, it used to be that it was easy to get 1920x1200 monitors, and then 1080p came and took a lot out, but now 1440p is starting to gain momentum, and Apple are doing 2880p.)

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