Are we all getting taken for a ride with our caps and prices ???

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Are we all getting taken for a ride with our caps and prices ???

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1061 posts

Uber Geek

#586197 24-Feb-2012 12:42

60GB is about right for us, although we're starting to stream more TV than watch it live. Happy with the $65 VOIP + 60GB deal through italk and vodafone. :-)

moxpearl

123 posts

Master Geek

#586209 24-Feb-2012 12:59

NonprayingMantis:
moxpearl: I am still struggling as to find why people are trying to defend our data caps... and I am not buying into the economies of it.. since data has been getting cheaper and cheaper.. yet our prices are not

plans have been getting bigger and bigger, which is the same thing as plans getting cheaper.

e.g. 3 years ago, Telecom's biggest plan was 50GB and cost >$160 including a landline. I know because I was on it. Now I can get a bigger plan (60GB) for $105 from Telecom, and even cheaper (or more data) from other ISPs

So don't try and claim we haven't seen any benefits

Travel for awhile.. you will see how out of date our caps are.. Australia until very recently (well mid last year or so) had lowish caps.. now 500GB+ is common. (At the same time we were all getting told we should be seeing larger caps "Soon")

For people saying "Most people dont use more than 20gb" etc.. that is pure ignorance......

Try having a family in a house with
- Everyone streaming youtube during the month (With the kids doing it alot)
- Wife watching on demand
- Isky streaming the cricket
- A gamer who plays online + buys a game or two a month from steam/gamersgate/origin/blizzard
- PSN/Xbox Live Purchases/Game Updates
- App downloads for everyones Phones from Androiid Market/Itunes
- Updates for apps/games/windows
- Etc Etc Etc

100GB+ goes EASY

no, it is simple fact.

Yes, doing all that stuff would use up a lot of data, but most households don't do much, if any, of that stuff. Most people use the internet for email, browsing, and a little bit of youtube.

even in countries with unlimited data, usage still averages around 20GB
,
Most people do not strema heaps of content, even with unlimited plans
Most people do not download heaps of games, even with unlimited data
etc etc

and the average above is Mean average, meaning it is skewed upwards by the few people who use TBs of data. Median is probably somewhere aroudn 10GB.

I dont care about "Most Households" ... most people would be happy to drive a toyota corolla.. but there are plenty of other cars....

Why are you happy to have "Average to low" internet here and defending the lousy caps when times are changing

Also this is just around the corner

http://windows8beta.com/2012/02/skydrive-and-windows-8-integration-opens-up-many-possibilities

moxpearl

123 posts

Master Geek

#586213 24-Feb-2012 13:03

tigercorp:
moxpearl: I am still struggling as to find why people are trying to defend our data caps... and I am not buying into the economies of it.. since data has been getting cheaper and cheaper.. yet our prices are not

Travel for awhile.. you will see how out of date our caps are.. Australia until very recently (well mid last year or so) had lowish caps.. now 500GB+ is common. (At the same time we were all getting told we should be seeing larger caps "Soon")

For people saying "Most people dont use more than 20gb" etc.. that is pure ignorance......

Try having a family in a house with
- Everyone streaming youtube during the month (With the kids doing it alot)
- Wife watching on demand
- Isky streaming the cricket
- A gamer who plays online + buys a game or two a month from steam/gamersgate/origin/blizzard
- PSN/Xbox Live Purchases/Game Updates
- App downloads for everyones Phones from Androiid Market/Itunes
- Updates for apps/games/windows
- Etc Etc Etc

100GB+ goes EASY

So why aren't you on Slingshot's 250GB plan already? Voting with your wallet is the only way to force ISPs to make a change.

I am in the process of changing atm

My parnter decided to sign up to orcon for 24 months >< (Before we moved in together) .. so we have to pay the large DC fee :(

Handle9

11391 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#586251 24-Feb-2012 14:03

moxpearl:
NonprayingMantis:
moxpearl: I am still struggling as to find why people are trying to defend our data caps... and I am not buying into the economies of it.. since data has been getting cheaper and cheaper.. yet our prices are not

plans have been getting bigger and bigger, which is the same thing as plans getting cheaper.

e.g. 3 years ago, Telecom's biggest plan was 50GB and cost >$160 including a landline. I know because I was on it. Now I can get a bigger plan (60GB) for $105 from Telecom, and even cheaper (or more data) from other ISPs

So don't try and claim we haven't seen any benefits

Travel for awhile.. you will see how out of date our caps are.. Australia until very recently (well mid last year or so) had lowish caps.. now 500GB+ is common. (At the same time we were all getting told we should be seeing larger caps "Soon")

For people saying "Most people dont use more than 20gb" etc.. that is pure ignorance......

Try having a family in a house with
- Everyone streaming youtube during the month (With the kids doing it alot)
- Wife watching on demand
- Isky streaming the cricket
- A gamer who plays online + buys a game or two a month from steam/gamersgate/origin/blizzard
- PSN/Xbox Live Purchases/Game Updates
- App downloads for everyones Phones from Androiid Market/Itunes
- Updates for apps/games/windows
- Etc Etc Etc

100GB+ goes EASY

no, it is simple fact.

Yes, doing all that stuff would use up a lot of data, but most households don't do much, if any, of that stuff. Most people use the internet for email, browsing, and a little bit of youtube.

even in countries with unlimited data, usage still averages around 20GB
,
Most people do not strema heaps of content, even with unlimited plans
Most people do not download heaps of games, even with unlimited data
etc etc

and the average above is Mean average, meaning it is skewed upwards by the few people who use TBs of data. Median is probably somewhere aroudn 10GB.

I dont care about "Most Households" ... most households would be happy with a 4Mbps connection and a 800ms ping

Why are you happy to have "Average to low" internet here and defending the lousy caps when times are changing

Also this is just around the corner

http://windows8beta.com/2012/02/skydrive-and-windows-8-integration-opens-up-many-possibilities

You may not care but the ISPs do - their business is built around scale not individuals. Their job is to maximise return on investment not make small groups of customers happy. They worry about satifying "most households" because that's where the money is.

moxpearl

123 posts

Master Geek

#592687 9-Mar-2012 10:29

This seemed to fit well here.. someone posted in the orcon forums

Just ahd a look at our Router and we have used about 6TB in the last month for a service we only pay around $700-$800 a month for with at Orcon which works out around $0.13/GB (and includes a lot of other stuff too). Pretty sure they are creaming it on the usage charges, especially for EUBA or LLU connections lol.

Beccara

1469 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

#592692 9-Mar-2012 10:42

In order for him to do 6TB in a month he would have to have been going 19mbit/sec 24/7 over the month which mean's he would have been using $1200+ worth of INT transit

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

Zeon

3916 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#592711 9-Mar-2012 11:22

Beccara: In order for him to do 6TB in a month he would have to have been going 19mbit/sec 24/7 over the month which mean's he would have been using $1200+ worth of INT transit

Ah only 1TB of that would have been international with the majority APE or other Orcon connections so don't think Orcon are losing money on us.. but goes to show the difference in price......

Considering there is no dimensioning on EUBA connections currently and the amount of cache stuff surely prices can be better than what they are now?

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Beccara

1469 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

#592740 9-Mar-2012 12:30

You're talking about a 9:1 split in NAT vs INT which is alot, alot higher than any figures public and private about the NAT/INT split, Individual cases may be different of course. That 1tb is still 4mbit/sec 24x7. $800 a month right now for the ability to do 6TB is a fair price as it stands today. If you are paying $800/mth for what seems to be a min of 20mbit/sec connection. $40/mbit for tail+nat+int+cache is a good deal

raytaylor

4014 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#594368 12-Mar-2012 22:18

Just thought i would pop in and say how slingshot can offer their unlimited data

1) They Cache everything. They have invested thousands and thousands - possibly millions of $$$ on their very good caching infrastructure. This means that most of what we want from overseas has been cached and can be served from their own network.

2) When you do want something from overseas that isnt cached, it wont be fast.

Their AYCE plan is aimed at average families who consume popular content such as your teenage daughter who only wants to facebook (small pieces of data from auctual facebook servers) and top 10 youtube videos (easily cached)
Or your son who is into gaming (akamai cache)
Or you who likes to read the nz herald (local content not far away)

Once you get out of that market, you need to get back to quality direct data that needs to be charged for accordingly.

Ray Taylor

There is no place like localhost

Spreadsheet for Comparing Electricity Plans Here

codyc1515

1598 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#594370 12-Mar-2012 22:20

raytaylor: Just thought i would pop in and say how slingshot can offer their unlimited data

1) They Cache everything. They have invested thousands and thousands - possibly millions of $$$ on their very good caching infrastructure. This means that most of what we want from overseas has been cached and can be served from their own network.

2) When you do want something from overseas that isnt cached, it wont be fast.

Their AYCE plan is aimed at average families who consume popular content such as your teenage daughter who only wants to facebook (small pieces of data from auctual facebook servers) and top 10 youtube videos (easily cached)
Or your son who is into gaming (akamai cache)
Or you who likes to read the nz herald (local content not far away)

Once you get out of that market, you need to get back to quality direct data that needs to be charged for accordingly.

Absolutely correct, once we have Pacific Fibre (as well as couple other necessary changes to cope with that) then we could probably eliminate #1 and part of #2.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#594391 12-Mar-2012 22:50

raytaylor: Just thought i would pop in and say how slingshot can offer their unlimited data

1) They Cache everything. They have invested thousands and thousands - possibly millions of $$$ on their very good caching infrastructure. This means that most of what we want from overseas has been cached and can be served from their own network.

2) When you do want something from overseas that isnt cached, it wont be fast.

Their AYCE plan is aimed at average families who consume popular content such as your teenage daughter who only wants to facebook (small pieces of data from auctual facebook servers) and top 10 youtube videos (easily cached)
Or your son who is into gaming (akamai cache)
Or you who likes to read the nz herald (local content not far away)

Once you get out of that market, you need to get back to quality direct data that needs to be charged for accordingly.

from the numbers I have seen, even with caching you are never going to get more than 40% of traffic to be local. there is just too much stuff that cannot be cached.

raytaylor

4014 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#594423 13-Mar-2012 02:16

NonprayingMantis:

from the numbers I have seen, even with caching you are never going to get more than 40% of traffic to be local. there is just too much stuff that cannot be cached.

It would be interesting to see what slingshot are auctually finding.

I know my caching system saves 20% just on general http and youtube alone. For every 8gb downloaded through my upstream connection, about 10gb is served out from the cache (which has all data passing through it including non-http)

However slingshot also cache torrents, and i am not sure if they ever implemented it, but i am pretty sure some of the peerapp stuff they have / had was also capable of fasttrack / gnutella p2p.

Add in Akamai and it must be a fair chunk of it.
On my network, about 30% of the data delivered is torrent, and 90% of that must be cachable when used by a large customer base such as slingshots.

I would make a semi-educated guess that slingshot is able to cache closer to 60% of their traffic.

Ray Taylor

There is no place like localhost

Spreadsheet for Comparing Electricity Plans Here

codyc1515

1598 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#594515 13-Mar-2012 11:56

raytaylor:
NonprayingMantis:

from the numbers I have seen, even with caching you are never going to get more than 40% of traffic to be local. there is just too much stuff that cannot be cached.

It would be interesting to see what slingshot are auctually finding.

I know my caching system saves 20% just on general http and youtube alone. For every 8gb downloaded through my upstream connection, about 10gb is served out from the cache (which has all data passing through it including non-http)

However slingshot also cache torrents, and i am not sure if they ever implemented it, but i am pretty sure some of the peerapp stuff they have / had was also capable of fasttrack / gnutella p2p.

Add in Akamai and it must be a fair chunk of it.
On my network, about 30% of the data delivered is torrent, and 90% of that must be cachable when used by a large customer base such as slingshots.

I would make a semi-educated guess that slingshot is able to cache closer to 60% of their traffic.

Yes, Slingshot caches torrents.

Ragnor

8222 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#594900 14-Mar-2012 04:14

I think they've tried a few different systems over time (Oversi, PeerApp), think they are using Bluecoat for traffic management and caching now:

http://www.bluecoat.com/company/press-releases/blue-coat-announced-callplus-has-selected-blue-coat-cacheflow-5000-appliances

Telecom are also using Bluecoat stuff

http://www.bluecoat.com/sites/default/files/products/whitepapers/IDC_TNZ_CacheFlow_case_study.a%20%281%29.pdf

Telstraclear too

http://newsroom.brocade.com/easyir/customrel.do?easyirid=74A6E71C169DEDA9&version=live&prid=710288&releasejsp=custom_184

Other ISP's.. we know in the past from official blog posts that Orcon were using Cisco SCE for traffic management, not sure what they use now and whether they've gone crazy with the caching sauce.

Trying to caching everything has it's downsides, phantom requests failing, intermittent faults, dns issues and so forth...

codyc1515

1598 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#595010 14-Mar-2012 11:45

Ragnor: I think they've tried a few different systems over time (Oversi, PeerApp), think they are using Bluecoat for traffic management and caching now:

http://www.bluecoat.com/company/press-releases/blue-coat-announced-callplus-has-selected-blue-coat-cacheflow-5000-appliances

Telecom are also using Bluecoat stuff

http://www.bluecoat.com/sites/default/files/products/whitepapers/IDC_TNZ_CacheFlow_case_study.a%20%281%29.pdf

Telstraclear too

http://newsroom.brocade.com/easyir/customrel.do?easyirid=74A6E71C169DEDA9&version=live&prid=710288&releasejsp=custom_184

Other ISP's.. we know in the past from official blog posts that Orcon were using Cisco SCE for traffic management, not sure what they use now and whether they've gone crazy with the caching sauce.

Trying to caching everything has it's downsides, phantom requests failing, intermittent faults, dns issues and so forth...

And Vodafone

http://www.bluecoat.com/company/press-releases/blue-coat-provides-mobile-operators-web-filtering-anti-virus-web-acceleration

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