Is Chorus too big to fail?

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SaltyNZ

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#930319 10-Nov-2013 17:27

sbiddle:

It also only factored in the lowest possible speed plans in the two countries used for the pricing (Sweden and Denmark)

Well, that seems fair, given that if you complain to Chorus about how your speed is crap even to local services despite high line speed, they'll reply 'we sell you a usage cap, not a speed.' You can't have it both ways - either speed is something you sell, or it's not. Chorus' public position is that they don't sell speed.

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sbiddle

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#930334 10-Nov-2013 18:26

Lazarui:
And here's that problem again, we're comparing two countries in the EU that have no real relationship to NZ except I believe their matching critiera was "Population density" or the cash rate or something equally odd. This comparision has always been a bit of a concern for me, we're pretty unique in our enviroment, regulation and density issues.

Exactly. The modelling is flawed in so many ways.

The Commerce Commission logic is that comparing speeds is irreverent because speed has nothing to do with the capability of the access product, but merely dimensioning of the backhaul. The mere fact they believe this shows how this modelling lacks any credibility.

The logic of is thrown out the door when you start comparing different network topology - and NZ has one of the best FTTN networks in the world. If you were to base NZ pricing off Australia you're not comparing apples with apples since the average DSL rates are abysmal in Australia compared to NZ where over 80% of premises have a 10Mbps of greater sync rate. In Australia this figure is a lot lower due to the lack of cabinets.

The Commerce Commission argument seems to be that the wholesale cost of a port should be the same regardless of whether an infrastructure provider builds a high class network enabling higher sync rates and higher speeds, or a low class network offering lower sync rates and lower speeds. The 4000+ ISAM's that Chorus have deployed in the last ~6 years didn't fall off the back of a truck.

JimmyH

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#930386 10-Nov-2013 20:47

mattwnz: Exactly, I have a rural property, and don't think I will ever get UFB, as it is not shown on the map. If it was all being done by the government directly, then it would be fair that everyone should get it. But as they have taken the risk to subcontract out to third parties, and setup SOE to set it up and run it, they can politically get away with it, as it is all kept at arms length. It has been further complicated by very heavy regulation. I don't know of any other sector that has had it so hard when it comes to regulation. I just wish they would regulate more pressing areas, such as building material prices (we pay 30% more than in Oz) and tv content.
The thing is we need to encourage more people into rural areas, to get people out of auckland, to help bring down unsustainable housing problems and prices.

What is this the SOE the Government has set up,to which you refer? I thought Chorus was wholly privately owned.

I don't know about the market for building materials, but I sure as heck don't want the Government controlling my TV viewing more closely.

mattwnz

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#930461 10-Nov-2013 22:20

JimmyH:
mattwnz: Exactly, I have a rural property, and don't think I will ever get UFB, as it is not shown on the map. If it was all being done by the government directly, then it would be fair that everyone should get it. But as they have taken the risk to subcontract out to third parties, and setup SOE to set it up and run it, they can politically get away with it, as it is all kept at arms length. It has been further complicated by very heavy regulation. I don't know of any other sector that has had it so hard when it comes to regulation. I just wish they would regulate more pressing areas, such as building material prices (we pay 30% more than in Oz) and tv content.
The thing is we need to encourage more people into rural areas, to get people out of auckland, to help bring down unsustainable housing problems and prices.

What is this the SOE the Government has set up,to which you refer? I thought Chorus was wholly privately owned.

I don't know about the market for building materials, but I sure as heck don't want the Government controlling my TV viewing more closely.

From what I understand, Chorus is only one of 4 companies that is installing the UFB on behalf of Crown Fibre Holdings around the country. I believe the actual fibre network will be owned by Crown Fibre Holdings, which appears to be an SOE and owned by the government. It seems that many people think that chorus will own the fibre network afterwards, so will reap benefits after it has been completed, from some of the articles I have read.

SaltyNZ

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#930494 11-Nov-2013 07:22

sbiddle:
Exactly. The modelling is flawed in so many ways.

To be fair, that's why we call it a 'model'. Because it's not real life, and it can't be. There are no other apples, so we can only compare with oranges, pears or peaches. Which is why - to abuse the analogy one step further - we have to make jam.

The Commerce Commission logic is that comparing speeds is irreverent because speed has nothing to do with the capability of the access product, but merely dimensioning of the backhaul. The mere fact they believe this shows how this modelling lacks any credibility.

Until a recent storm blew up both my modem and the exchange I got 7.6Mb downlink. It is now 5.6Mb after repairs, and tweaking the new modem towards speed vs. stability (default settings: <4Mb). The repair was to remove the extremely loud 50Hz hum that was introduced onto the line by the fault. Between getting a replacement modem and the line repair I still got 7Mb+ off DSL, being filtered and all. Getting the access back to its highest quality was not the priority, I guess.

So it seems fair that the CC be at least as interested in the backhaul as the access. For comparison: I struggle to get 1Mb throughput (even to the Auckland Speedtest server) during peak hours for the last 6 months or so, despite my still-pretty-good access. What can that be other than backhaul?

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PaulBrislen

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#930534 11-Nov-2013 09:20

mattwnz:
JimmyH:
mattwnz: Exactly, I have a rural property, and don't think I will ever get UFB, as it is not shown on the map. If it was all being done by the government directly, then it would be fair that everyone should get it. But as they have taken the risk to subcontract out to third parties, and setup SOE to set it up and run it, they can politically get away with it, as it is all kept at arms length. It has been further complicated by very heavy regulation. I don't know of any other sector that has had it so hard when it comes to regulation. I just wish they would regulate more pressing areas, such as building material prices (we pay 30% more than in Oz) and tv content.
The thing is we need to encourage more people into rural areas, to get people out of auckland, to help bring down unsustainable housing problems and prices.

What is this the SOE the Government has set up,to which you refer? I thought Chorus was wholly privately owned.

I don't know about the market for building materials, but I sure as heck don't want the Government controlling my TV viewing more closely.

From what I understand, Chorus is only one of 4 companies that is installing the UFB on behalf of Crown Fibre Holdings around the country. I believe the actual fibre network will be owned by Crown Fibre Holdings, which appears to be an SOE and owned by the government. It seems that many people think that chorus will own the fibre network afterwards, so will reap benefits after it has been completed, from some of the articles I have read.

Hate to break it to you but when this is all done, the people of New Zealand will own precisely none of the UFB.

Chorus will own 70%, Enable, UFF and Northpower the rest.

Crown Fibre's role is to oversee the contracts with the LFCs and Chorus, not to own the network.

sbiddle

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#930553 11-Nov-2013 09:43

SaltyNZ:
So it seems fair that the CC be at least as interested in the backhaul as the access. For comparison: I struggle to get 1Mb throughput (even to the Auckland Speedtest server) during peak hours for the last 6 months or so, despite my still-pretty-good access. What can that be other than backhaul?

But according to the Commerce Commission, that's still a perfect speed. Providing you can get an average of 32kbps over a 15 minute period you've got broadband.

I'm guessing you're on an ASAM or a Conklin?

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PaulBrislen

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#930562 11-Nov-2013 10:05

sbiddle:
SaltyNZ:
So it seems fair that the CC be at least as interested in the backhaul as the access. For comparison: I struggle to get 1Mb throughput (even to the Auckland Speedtest server) during peak hours for the last 6 months or so, despite my still-pretty-good access. What can that be other than backhaul?

But according to the Commerce Commission, that's still a perfect speed. Providing you can get an average of 32kbps over a 15 minute period you've got broadband.

I'm guessing you're on an ASAM or a Conklin?

The UBA service is available in a number of speeds, don't forget, and while none of them are stellar the range runs up from 32kbit/s - that's just the base level speed.

SaltyNZ

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#930574 11-Nov-2013 10:30

sbiddle:
SaltyNZ:
So it seems fair that the CC be at least as interested in the backhaul as the access. For comparison: I struggle to get 1Mb throughput (even to the Auckland Speedtest server) during peak hours for the last 6 months or so, despite my still-pretty-good access. What can that be other than backhaul?

But according to the Commerce Commission, that's still a perfect speed. Providing you can get an average of 32kbps over a 15 minute period you've got broadband.

I'm guessing you're on an ASAM or a Conklin?

IIRC the worst result I recorded was 0.02Mb down, actually, though it's not normally that bad. I'm not sure what the DSLAM is. It's an odd one in a shack about 3mx3m just off SH1. I believe it is the actual Puhoi exchange, not just a DSLAM. I do know it is never scheduled to be upgraded as the plan is for RBI to cover the area with blistering 5Mb broadband speeds in 2015 or 2016, no doubt with a tenth of the usage cap for five times the price. I wonder what happens if I say no thanks to RBI? Do I get a whole DSLAM to myself? That wouldn't be so bad.

The really annoying thing is that the main fibre to all points north of Auckland goes past my driveway. All I need is an SDH node and a digger accident and I'll be set.

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sbiddle

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#930588 11-Nov-2013 10:40

SaltyNZ:
sbiddle:
SaltyNZ:
So it seems fair that the CC be at least as interested in the backhaul as the access. For comparison: I struggle to get 1Mb throughput (even to the Auckland Speedtest server) during peak hours for the last 6 months or so, despite my still-pretty-good access. What can that be other than backhaul?

But according to the Commerce Commission, that's still a perfect speed. Providing you can get an average of 32kbps over a 15 minute period you've got broadband.

I'm guessing you're on an ASAM or a Conklin?

IIRC the worst result I recorded was 0.02Mb down, actually, though it's not normally that bad. I'm not sure what the DSLAM is. It's an odd one in a shack about 3mx3m just off SH1. I believe it is the actual Puhoi exchange, not just a DSLAM. I do know it is never scheduled to be upgraded as the plan is for RBI to cover the area with blistering 5Mb broadband speeds in 2015 or 2016, no doubt with a tenth of the usage cap for five times the price. I wonder what happens if I say no thanks to RBI? Do I get a whole DSLAM to myself? That wouldn't be so bad.

The really annoying thing is that the main fibre to all points north of Auckland goes past my driveway. All I need is an SDH node and a digger accident and I'll be set.

Yup that's the Puhio exchange. It looks like a such a nice quaint building! :-)

You've on ADSL1 UBA with ATM backhaul so will be suffering from the same issues everybody else in this situation has - new higher capped EUBA plans that are essentially trashing the backhaul.

SepticSceptic

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#933715 14-Nov-2013 10:11

SaltyNZ:
IIRC the worst result I recorded was 0.02Mb down, actually, though it's not normally that bad. I'm not sure what the DSLAM is. It's an odd one in a shack about 3mx3m just off SH1. I believe it is the actual Puhoi exchange, not just a DSLAM. .

The Puhoi exchange is recently been upgraded ( June 2013) - like you, my BB speeds were atrocious, reflecting what you are currently getting.

Now I have ADSL2, Isky streaming, 400K+ downloads, Youtube etc - could not have done that with the original ADSL connection.

SaltyNZ

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#933727 14-Nov-2013 10:36

SepticSceptic:
SaltyNZ:
IIRC the worst result I recorded was 0.02Mb down, actually, though it's not normally that bad. I'm not sure what the DSLAM is. It's an odd one in a shack about 3mx3m just off SH1. I believe it is the actual Puhoi exchange, not just a DSLAM. .

The Puhoi exchange is recently been upgraded ( June 2013) - like you, my BB speeds were atrocious, reflecting what you are currently getting.

Now I have ADSL2, Isky streaming, 400K+ downloads, Youtube etc - could not have done that with the original ADSL connection.

Must be a different one. I still only get ADSL 1. And it's been since around June that my speeds have gotten worse, not better. :-/

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matisyahu

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#934746 16-Nov-2013 08:27

I have to admit when I saw Chorus win the contract for the rest of New Zealand I couldn't help but feel as though the government decided to throw all their eggs into one basket rather than spread the risk to ensure something like this wouldn't happen.

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