Looking for IT job -- anything considered

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#1378214 2-Sep-2015 13:16

timmmay: Graduates aren't particularly useful for a while after they're hired, they need a lot of direction and supervision. University doesn't prepare people for jobs well.

In the USA there's the concept of an intern. They typically don't get paid, but they get experience. I wonder if that kind of thing would work in NZ?

A bunch of NZ companies do graduate recruitment and have a yearly intake of graduates. Xero did this when I was there, and back when I was at uni I remember Orion health doing the same.

I really hate the idea of unpaid internships. They're not an option for people from poorer backgrounds. I'd hope they didn't start to be a thing here. In Wellington there was a summer internship programme called "Summer of Tech" but it was paid. I think it's still running, and there's probably an equivalent in Auckland.

radicall

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Radicall

#1378252 2-Sep-2015 13:51

deadlyllama:
timmmay: Graduates aren't particularly useful for a while after they're hired, they need a lot of direction and supervision. University doesn't prepare people for jobs well.

In the USA there's the concept of an intern. They typically don't get paid, but they get experience. I wonder if that kind of thing would work in NZ?

A bunch of NZ companies do graduate recruitment and have a yearly intake of graduates. Xero did this when I was there, and back when I was at uni I remember Orion health doing the same.

I really hate the idea of unpaid internships. They're not an option for people from poorer backgrounds. I'd hope they didn't start to be a thing here. In Wellington there was a summer internship programme called "Summer of Tech" but it was paid. I think it's still running, and there's probably an equivalent in Auckland.

No one likes unpaid internships, but we can not ignore the trend. There are many small businesses out there willing to provide the experience but simply can not afford to pay for an outright full-time role.

Why would you reject this as a way of getting the experience.

I have a role for someone street smart where you can set your own salary but you have to work for commission only to start.

Essentially an unpaid internship for a person looking to get into a paid role, what's more I am happy to provide the one on one training an guidance on making it work, I did it for my self took 3 years to get a decent income, so can be done.

If anything you will gain real live experience.

Why wouldn't you?

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dpw

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#1378270 2-Sep-2015 14:08

We are currently looking for graduate/junior devs too, not your run-of-the-mill LOB software shop though. Here's a blurb about the role. PM me if you have any questions.

Android user, software developer, a semi-typical (not a gamer) geek, and a Bernese Mountain Dog nut!

http://savitarbernese.com | https://nz.linkedin.com/in/danywu

DravidDavid

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#1378271 2-Sep-2015 14:08

radicall:
deadlyllama:
timmmay: Graduates aren't particularly useful for a while after they're hired, they need a lot of direction and supervision. University doesn't prepare people for jobs well.

In the USA there's the concept of an intern. They typically don't get paid, but they get experience. I wonder if that kind of thing would work in NZ?

A bunch of NZ companies do graduate recruitment and have a yearly intake of graduates. Xero did this when I was there, and back when I was at uni I remember Orion health doing the same.

I really hate the idea of unpaid internships. They're not an option for people from poorer backgrounds. I'd hope they didn't start to be a thing here. In Wellington there was a summer internship programme called "Summer of Tech" but it was paid. I think it's still running, and there's probably an equivalent in Auckland.

No one likes unpaid internships, but we can not ignore the trend. There are many small businesses out there willing to provide the experience but simply can not afford to pay for an outright full-time role.

Why would you reject this as a way of getting the experience.

I have a role for someone street smart where you can set your own salary but you have to work for commission only to start.

Essentially an unpaid internship for a person looking to get into a paid role, what's more I am happy to provide the one on one training an guidance on making it work, I did it for my self took 3 years to get a decent income, so can be done.

If anything you will gain real live experience.

Why wouldn't you?

Internships work, but there are a lot of business that abuse the situation, which is why a lot of people are put off internships. I'm in favor for internships as you describe. But the industry I studied (3D animation), internships were abused to kingdom come. People would be in an internship for 6 months to a year and then told to take a hike when they started asking for full-time contracts. I jumped ship in to IT for this reason. A lot of my classmates were shafted this way, so I'm quite wary when recommending such opportunities to others.

I guess it's a case of know your industry, know your employer and strike a deal before signing anything so everyone knows what they are getting out of it from the start. Otherwise, steer clear if you feel you aren't going to be getting the experience you want.

lxsw20

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#1378276 2-Sep-2015 14:14

dpw: We are currently looking for graduate/junior devs too, not your run-of-the-mill LOB software shop though. Here's a blurb about the role. PM me if you have any questions.

Does it come with free mountain dog?

dpw

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#1378280 2-Sep-2015 14:22

lxsw20:
dpw: We are currently looking for graduate/junior devs too, not your run-of-the-mill LOB software shop though. Here's a blurb about the role. PM me if you have any questions.

Does it come with free mountain dog?

I did say "PM me" if you have any questions... definitely no free mountain dog for you!

Android user, software developer, a semi-typical (not a gamer) geek, and a Bernese Mountain Dog nut!

http://savitarbernese.com | https://nz.linkedin.com/in/danywu

radicall

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#1378289 2-Sep-2015 14:29

Internships work, but there are a lot of business that abuse the situation, which is why a lot of people are put off internships. I'm in favor for internships as you describe. But the industry I studied (3D animation), internships were abused to kingdom come. People would be in an internship for 6 months to a year and then told to take a hike when they started asking for full-time contracts. I jumped ship in to IT for this reason. A lot of my classmates were shafted this way, so I'm quite wary when recommending such opportunities to others.

I guess it's a case of know your industry, know your employer and strike a deal before signing anything so everyone knows what they are getting out of it from the start. Otherwise, steer clear if you feel you aren't going to be getting the experience you want.

Yes, I guess if they can be abused they will if there are no consequences, surely that industry would know about the abuse and which businesses abuses it, thinking supply demand here, if the interns got no value out of the internship there would be little demand for them.

I can see from this thread there is a call for everyone to want to get into a career with the big boys, they are lining up, so would be interesting to see what the selection criteria is. I mean A- is a pretty good result.

My advice is don't go with the crowd.

Do things outside of the box, when you are young you can make mistakes in the choice of industry but get life experience and working is the first goal, second maintain solid values such as sticking around becoming indispensable for who ever you choose to gain your first work experience with.

When they say you need experience they don't necessarily mean job experience but life experience.

As with this young man, I am sure it is not an easy thing to move away from home and learn how to live, let alone learning how to work in a new role. There is no guarantee how he will handle the new found freedom of being able to do anything when and where he wants.

My suggestion would be to transition to Auckland stay with family and get any role you can for a year or so, he will then be in a position to take any direction he desires.

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grant_k

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#1378397 2-Sep-2015 16:27

dpw: We are currently looking for graduate/junior devs too, not your run-of-the-mill LOB software shop though. Here's a blurb about the role. PM me if you have any questions.

We loved the video about your company and the team culture. Full marks for a very innovative approach to recruitment.

As it happens, Ben included 6 Geology papers as part of his electives for the B.Sc degree. Geology has always fascinated him and he got excellent grades for the papers concerned.

He is very interested in what you have to offer and will be in touch.

Thank you!

grant_k

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#1378425 2-Sep-2015 17:35

DravidDavid: Internships work, but there are a lot of business that abuse the situation, which is why a lot of people are put off internships. I'm in favor for internships as you describe. But the industry I studied (3D animation), internships were abused to kingdom come. People would be in an internship for 6 months to a year and then told to take a hike when they started asking for full-time contracts. I jumped ship in to IT for this reason. A lot of my classmates were shafted this way, so I'm quite wary when recommending such opportunities to others.

3D animation is exactly where Ben started out. Upon completion of his degree at Unitec he did some voluntary work for the 'Global Plus' advert, if anyone remembers it from 2008. It was about 3 months of work, with us paying his bus fares every day and providing him with a roof over his head. We had great hopes that a job might result from it, but all he got was a free lunch and sent on his way. So he picked up some contract graphics work at Sky TV and moved away from home into a flat near to his work. That arrangement worked perfectly for 3 years until Sky cut back the work offered to freelance contractors.

By that stage, Ben was 2 years of the way through his B.Sc (CompSci) degree and decided to study full-time for the final year. So he has some life experience, as well as some good references, but really needs a job now. Fingers crossed for the ARANZ Geo one mentioned above!

grant_k

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#1397694 1-Oct-2015 05:38

grant_k:
dpw: We are currently looking for graduate/junior devs too, not your run-of-the-mill LOB software shop though. Here's a blurb about the role. PM me if you have any questions.

We loved the video about your company and the team culture. Full marks for a very innovative approach to recruitment.

As it happens, Ben included 6 Geology papers as part of his electives for the B.Sc degree. Geology has always fascinated him and he got excellent grades for the papers concerned.

He is very interested in what you have to offer and will be in touch.

Thank you!

Thanks again to DPW for bringing this job to my attention. As it turned out there were 3 vacancies on offer, with well over 100 applicants for each. Ben was shortlisted, then completed a questionnaire and things looked really promising for a while. A timeframe was given, after which he would get an answer. That week passed, with no response, then another week. Finally Ben sent another email to ask what was happening. Sorry, you missed out again was the reply.

More times than not, prospective employers don't bother to let you know if you're unsuccessful, it seems. This is very disappointing, but human nature I guess. Nobody likes to be the bearer of bad news, but at the same time, it would be kinder to let someone know the outcome, rather than keep them dangling with a false hope.

Ben is finally receiving the dole so at least he has some income in the meantime. There is one job prospect still alive at present, but hopes are beginning to fade as yet more time passes without any reply.

There isn't much more we can do at this stage except keep applying for anything that comes up. If anybody wants some development work done, even without pay, Ben would look at it, so long as it can be done remotely. Working on a voluntary basis is one thing, but having to fork out for accommodation whilst on the dole makes things pretty much impossible, so he needs to stay with us in the meantime.

Thanks to all who have read this far, and especially to those who made suggestions. No experience in life is entirely wasted, but finding a job for Ben has been far more difficult than we expected. Maybe a Computer Science degree wasn't such a good choice after all.

DravidDavid

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#1397786 1-Oct-2015 09:41

grant_k:
grant_k:
dpw: We are currently looking for graduate/junior devs too, not your run-of-the-mill LOB software shop though. Here's a blurb about the role. PM me if you have any questions.

We loved the video about your company and the team culture. Full marks for a very innovative approach to recruitment.

As it happens, Ben included 6 Geology papers as part of his electives for the B.Sc degree. Geology has always fascinated him and he got excellent grades for the papers concerned.

He is very interested in what you have to offer and will be in touch.

Thank you!

Thanks again to DPW for bringing this job to my attention. As it turned out there were 3 vacancies on offer, with well over 100 applicants for each. Ben was shortlisted, then completed a questionnaire and things looked really promising for a while. A timeframe was given, after which he would get an answer. That week passed, with no response, then another week. Finally Ben sent another email to ask what was happening. Sorry, you missed out again was the reply.

More times than not, prospective employers don't bother to let you know if you're unsuccessful, it seems. This is very disappointing, but human nature I guess. Nobody likes to be the bearer of bad news, but at the same time, it would be kinder to let someone know the outcome, rather than keep them dangling with a false hope.

Ben is finally receiving the dole so at least he has some income in the meantime. There is one job prospect still alive at present, but hopes are beginning to fade as yet more time passes without any reply.

There isn't much more we can do at this stage except keep applying for anything that comes up. If anybody wants some development work done, even without pay, Ben would look at it, so long as it can be done remotely. Working on a voluntary basis is one thing, but having to fork out for accommodation whilst on the dole makes things pretty much impossible, so he needs to stay with us in the meantime.

Thanks to all who have read this far, and especially to those who made suggestions. No experience in life is entirely wasted, but finding a job for Ben has been far more difficult than we expected. Maybe a Computer Science degree wasn't such a good choice after all.

This time last year employers were tripping over themselves to employ developers. Crazy just how fast the tide turns in the job market. There were some junior tech jobs available in Auckland last week, but by the sounds of it he's probably already applied.

t0ny

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#1397787 1-Oct-2015 09:43

I would say do not give up hope. Hiring fresh graduates is something that some companies do and some don't due to the extra work required to mentor them. Being hired at the wrong company will give you some lessons in life you wish universities prepared you for but i guess that is life. Most companies also do not communicate back to everyone especially for junior roles where there could be thousands of applications so don't be disappointed with that. Many moons ago when i first applied for my first job, two companies got back to me months after i had already accepted an offer with another company. My personal tips for someone who wants to get into software development are:

1. Send out as many CV's as you can. Make sure you CV is to the point and does not contain fluffy stuff like knowledge of MS Word. We don't care if you know MS Word :) Tailor your CV for each job listing you are sending out so that it aligns somewhat to the job description but don't make stuff up. You will eventually get caught out.
2. With no real experience, we are taking the risk that the person we are hiring know they stuff. Having a solid portfolio helps and it helps more if you have contributed to any open source projects. We are able to see your commits and quality of work. This give us confidence that you really know your stuff and not making it up
3. You need to stand out from the crowd. This can come in many forms like making a good impression in interviews or having constant communication with the company.
4. I always look for someone who has a solid understand of software development. Knowing six programming languages etc is great but knowing the syntax is one thing, knowing how to apply it properly is another thing which most new graduates miss out on. We need software developers who can think on their own and can work out the pros and cons of every decision being taken when writing software. Having a right attitude and approach to a problem is very important.
5. Come to interviews with the right expectation. Never seeks to amaze me when we get people coming in with the intention of becoming a development lead within 2 years or dreaming that they will be coding every day. For small shops where they dont have teams doing different things, you will be required to have more than one hat and may find yourself writing code for 20% of the time and doing everything else in between.
6. Dont sound desperate. While its good to know you are open to any jobs out there, it also tells me that you will most likely leave the job once you find out that its not what you really want to do. I would suggest penning down where you want to be in 3 years time and then work on the strategy on how to best achieve it ie. what types of jobs will get you there. If you want to do web design then there is no point applying for a job that is focused on systems programmin

I dont have any vacancies available at the moment but feel free to ping me if you are after some specific advise like reviewing your CV etc.

Horseychick

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#1397799 1-Oct-2015 10:16

Some great replies, and hopefully Ben is staying positive. Just a thought - has he looked at any testing roles? Sometimes if you are a good developer you can also be a good tester and it can be a way of getting your foot in the door at companies.

grant_k

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#1397802 1-Oct-2015 10:19

Horseychick: Some great replies, and hopefully Ben is staying positive. Just a thought - has he looked at any testing roles? Sometimes if you are a good developer you can also be a good tester and it can be a way of getting your foot in the door at companies.

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately he has already applied for several testing jobs, including one of the roles at ARANZ Geo (above). Each time he gets rejected because he doesn't have any testing experience. How is he supposed to get such experience if no one will hire him!

ubergeeknz

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#1397803 1-Oct-2015 10:29

Contributing to Open Source projects is a good way, also as a few others have stated, then your work is on display so potential employers can have a look.

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