Orcon plans to change...

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › Orcon plans to change...

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#690703 24-Sep-2012 16:14

Sounddude:

Cool just wanted to confirm I wont be impacted when all the P2Pers change to the unlimited plan.

I wouldn't stress about the P2p'ers.

We have a big PeerApp cache which caches P2P. It will improve the speeds of the P2P'ers and keep our tubes free for other customers.

What's a PeerApp cache, and how exactly does it help us? Is this a new thing, so we haven't seen the benefit of it yet?

G.

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#690706 24-Sep-2012 16:26

clowg:
Sounddude:

Cool just wanted to confirm I wont be impacted when all the P2Pers change to the unlimited plan.

I wouldn't stress about the P2p'ers.

We have a big PeerApp cache which caches P2P. It will improve the speeds of the P2P'ers and keep our tubes free for other customers.

What's a PeerApp cache, and how exactly does it help us? Is this a new thing, so we haven't seen the benefit of it yet?

G.

PeerApp is a product that will actually keep copies of torrented files, and when someone goes to download them the cache will actually feed the cached data instead of data from the network, making it much faster. Yes, caching is a legitimate exemption to the copyright laws so Orcon isn't in danger of being sued into oblivion because of it. I believe Slingshot also uses one?

xpd

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#690707 24-Sep-2012 16:26

http://www.peerapp.com/ ?

Gavin / xpd / FastRaccoon / Geek of Coastguard New Zealand

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#690708 24-Sep-2012 16:28

Kyanar:
clowg:
Sounddude:

Cool just wanted to confirm I wont be impacted when all the P2Pers change to the unlimited plan.

I wouldn't stress about the P2p'ers.

We have a big PeerApp cache which caches P2P. It will improve the speeds of the P2P'ers and keep our tubes free for other customers.

What's a PeerApp cache, and how exactly does it help us? Is this a new thing, so we haven't seen the benefit of it yet?

G.

PeerApp is a product that will actually keep copies of torrented files, and when someone goes to download them the cache will actually feed the cached data instead of data from the network, making it much faster. Yes, caching is a legitimate exemption to the copyright laws so Orcon isn't in danger of being sued into oblivion because of it. I believe Slingshot also uses one?

So that includes any torrent, as in legal and illegal?

NonprayingMantis

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#690709 24-Sep-2012 16:30

Sounddude:

Cool just wanted to confirm I wont be impacted when all the P2Pers change to the unlimited plan.

I wouldn't stress about the P2p'ers.

We have a big PeerApp cache which caches P2P. It will improve the speeds of the P2P'ers and keep our tubes free for other customers.

It sounds good, but having a P2P cache worries me a little

We have done pretty well in NZ to make it clear that ISPs are not responsible for pirating activity on their network, and thus rights holders have to pay ISPs a fee if they want them to act on copyright breaches.

Whilst P2P can, of course, be used for legitimate reasons, we all know that, in reality, the vast majority of P2P content is pirated content. When ISPs don’t prioritise P2P traffic in any way they can maintain a stance of ignorance, where they state that they don't condone illegal activity.

But having a P2P cache seems a little risky to me, as it may open up an argument for RIANZ et al to maybe argue more successfully that ISPs are not simply ‘dumb pipes’ who don’t know or care what their users do, but rather are actively promoting (rather than condoning) activity that is highly likely to be infringing (especially in combination with an unlimited plan)

P2P is not illegal in itself, but most P2P activity is illegal, and by having a P2P cache ISPs may be digging themselves a hole.

Maybe my fear is misplaced.
Beleive me, I really hope it is.

But the last thing we need is RIANZ et al winning over the government by pointing to this sort of activity and getting the cost of copyright notices brought down to a few cents and then flooding the market with them.

richms

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#690730 24-Sep-2012 16:50

The cache only knows about piece numbers and torrent hash names, not what the individual files in them are as they do not have a copy of the torrent file.

While they could possibly scrape metadata and similar for copyrighted names and stuff, they are under no obligation to do so.

In saying that I so seldom get the slingshot one connecting that its prettymuch pointless these days. Crap speeds and all that. If orcon wasnt on my ****list for a total billing ballsup I would consider this to replace slingshot, but at the moment the party looks to be a better option as they are offering VDSL which orcon are refusing to.

Richard rich.ms

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#690731 24-Sep-2012 16:52

Massive companies like google cache illegal websites and images so I see this as no different.

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#690735 24-Sep-2012 17:04

Well I've decided to bite the bullet and go Genius the $89 60GB plan will suit me fine that's double what I get now for an extra $8.00

I'll be back with how it all turns out and how well or not it runs

NonprayingMantis

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#690743 24-Sep-2012 17:14

Snackos: Massive companies like google cache illegal websites and images so I see this as no different.

you are probably right, but my concern is more about the perception of this and how politicians may interpret it (remembering that politicians aren't the most tech savvy people in the world)

they may take the view that:

general caching, that might unwittingly catch some illegal stuff, = fine
caching of a specific thing that is primarily used for illegal activity = not fine

Sounddude

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#690747 24-Sep-2012 17:20

P2P is not illegal in itself, but most P2P activity is illegal, and by having a P2P cache ISPs may be digging themselves a hole.

Maybe my fear is misplaced.
Beleive me, I really hope it is.

But the last thing we need is RIANZ et al winning over the government by pointing to this sort of activity and getting the cost of copyright notices brought down to a few cents and then flooding the market with them.

Internet service provider does not infringe copyright by caching infringing material

(1) An Internet service provider does not infringe copyright in a work by caching material if the Internet service provider—
- (a) does not modify the material; and
- (b) complies with any conditions imposed by the copyright owner of the material for access to that material; and
- (c) does not interfere with the lawful use of technology to obtain data on the use of the material; and
- (d) updates the material in accordance with reasonable industry practice.
(2) However, an Internet service provider does infringe copyright in a work by caching material if the Internet service provider does not delete the material or prevent access to it by users as soon as possible after the Internet service provider became aware that—
- (a) the material has been deleted from its original source; or
- (b) access to the material at its original source has been prevented; or
- (c) a court has ordered that the material be deleted from its original source or that access to the material at its original source be prevented.
(3) Nothing in this section limits the right of the copyright owner to injunctive relief in relation to a user’s infringement or any infringement by the Internet service provider.
(4) In this section,—
cache means the storage of material by an Internet service provider that is—
- (a) controlled through an automated process; and
- (b) temporary; and
- (c) for the sole purpose of enabling the Internet service provider to transmit the material more efficiently to other users of the service on their request
original source means the source from which the Internet service provider copied the material that is cached.
Section 92E: inserted, on 31 October 2008, by section 53 of the Copyright (New Technologies) Amendment Act 2008 (2008 No 27).

NonprayingMantis

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#690749 24-Sep-2012 17:27

Sounddude:

P2P is not illegal in itself, but most P2P activity is illegal, and by having a P2P cache ISPs may be digging themselves a hole.

Maybe my fear is misplaced.
Beleive me, I really hope it is.

But the last thing we need is RIANZ et al winning over the government by pointing to this sort of activity and getting the cost of copyright notices brought down to a few cents and then flooding the market with them.

Internet service provider does not infringe copyright by caching infringing material
(1) An Internet service provider does not infringe copyright in a work by caching material if the Internet service provider—
(a) does not modify the material; and
(b) complies with any conditions imposed by the copyright owner of the material for access to that material; and
(c) does not interfere with the lawful use of technology to obtain data on the use of the material; and
(d) updates the material in accordance with reasonable industry practice.
(2) However, an Internet service provider does infringe copyright in a work by caching material if the Internet service provider does not delete the material or prevent access to it by users as soon as possible after the Internet service provider became aware that—
(a) the material has been deleted from its original source; or
(b) access to the material at its original source has been prevented; or
(c) a court has ordered that the material be deleted from its original source or that access to the material at its original source be prevented.
(3) Nothing in this section limits the right of the copyright owner to injunctive relief in relation to a user’s infringement or any infringement by the Internet service provider.
(4) In this section,—
cache means the storage of material by an Internet service provider that is—
(a) controlled through an automated process; and
(b) temporary; and
(c) for the sole purpose of enabling the Internet service provider to transmit the material more efficiently to other users of the service on their request
original source means the source from which the Internet service provider copied the material that is cached.
Section 92E: inserted, on 31 October 2008, by section 53 of the Copyright (New Technologies) Amendment Act 2008 (2008 No 27).

yes, I know it is fine now. I;m more worried about politicians changing the laws when ISPs start chanigng their caching policies from caching stuff that is mostly legal to stuff that is mostly illegal.

imagine if the politicans decided that caching was now subject to the same rules as if a consumer downloaded it. ISPs would have to stop all caching activity and customers would suffer.

mercutio

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#690887 25-Sep-2012 00:30

even if there is a different international pool, orcon has had multiple problems with national congestion on adsl circuits in the past, and may again.

back in buba days, when they first had unlimited connections speeds plummeted even for national connections. and less than a year ago orcon had speed degradation on euba connections. neither of these were fixed in a timely fashion, and both were bad enough to seriously hinder interactive use.

i'd be weary of a long-term contract, although with ufb it's "probably" fine.

Sounddude

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#690891 25-Sep-2012 01:41

mercutio: even if there is a different international pool, orcon has had multiple problems with national congestion on adsl circuits in the past, and may again.

back in buba days, when they first had unlimited connections speeds plummeted even for national connections. and less than a year ago orcon had speed degradation on euba connections. neither of these were fixed in a timely fashion, and both were bad enough to seriously hinder interactive use.

i'd be weary of a long-term contract, although with ufb it's "probably" fine.

Lots has changed since the "BUBA days, for all ISP's. Back then Chorus limited each ISP to 45kbits per sub and didn't give an option for anything else. Which is why it was never fixed in a timet fashion. (It couldn't! be fixed!).

EUBA has changed the wholesale market, and with Orcon bundling the major exchanges (and still continuing the unbundle) I don't really see this repeating itself.

Ragnor

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#690898 25-Sep-2012 03:53

Sounddude:

Cool just wanted to confirm I wont be impacted when all the P2Pers change to the unlimited plan.

I wouldn't stress about the P2p'ers.

We have a big PeerApp cache which caches P2P. It will improve the speeds of the P2P'ers and keep our tubes free for other customers.

PeerApp isn't going to help much with downloads via SFTP/FTPS, HTTPS, NNTP over SSL though... those will have to be shaped via DPI/flow matching heuristics to stop downloaders running wild.

Sounddude

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#690910 25-Sep-2012 07:44

Ragnor:
PeerApp isn't going to help much with downloads via SFTP/FTPS, HTTPS, NNTP over SSL though... those will have to be shaped via DPI/flow matching heuristics to stop downloaders running wild.

Yes very true, but we don't see a huge amount of that type of traffic currently.

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