[Snap] Snap Internet: low speeds, Chorus to check, internal wiring?

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › [Snap] Snap Internet: low speeds, Chorus to check, internal wiring?

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31 posts

Geek

#811580 5-May-2013 14:29

Thank you everyone for your advice, knowledge and help. I think after Snap have contacted me soon I will opt to get Chorus to come and make sure the wiring is perfect.

Should have paid for the wiring install from the start perhaps.

I will keep you posted.

Slashman

31 posts

Geek

#812294 6-May-2013 20:43

Update: Snap rang me on Sunday and said that they have booked Chorus to check out my line at the exchange again and I will hear from them Monday and that they were putting the job through as a non chargeable call so that was great also.

The Chorus guy rang me Monday and said that he is going to check the line outside my house. His tests reported that after disconnecting the house end of the line and running the test he got a whopping 41Mb down and 10Mb up.

This now only leaves the line from the point he disconnected it into the point it comes out in the garage wall as the problem zone.

I have a reference number and a number to call to book him to come out and he said that the cabling has not been installed properly and asked if it was a new line I said no it is possibly as old as the house.

So good progress.

Slashman

31 posts

Geek

#815041 10-May-2013 10:04

Update:

Chorus came Thursday as planned and quickly found that the line comes into the house upstairs. He also found that a redundant sky ph jack was pulling everything down.

So for me it was internal house wiring, which is the cause of most if not all problems.

I logically thought the garage wire was the main line but it was actually a feed wire from upstairs.

So thanks for helping and thanks to SNAP for sorting this out fast ie TheRalph.

Cheers,

Aaron.

P.S. 47Mbs sync dn 16Mbs sync up in Fritz.

stevehodge

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#815104 10-May-2013 11:13

Slashman: 47Mbs sync dn 16Mbs sync up in Fritz.

16 Mbps upload sync? I thought 10 MBps was the maximum possible upload sync. Can you post a screenshot of the DSL tab?

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#815116 10-May-2013 11:20

Where abouts are you based? You can't cheap out with VDSL, get a master filter installed. If you're in Wellington Cyrill7 does an excellent job of this.

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RalphFromSnap

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Snap Internet

#815117 10-May-2013 11:21

Slashman: Update:

Chorus came Thursday as planned and quickly found that the line comes into the house upstairs. He also found that a redundant sky ph jack was pulling everything down.

So for me it was internal house wiring, which is the cause of most if not all problems.

I logically thought the garage wire was the main line but it was actually a feed wire from upstairs.

So thanks for helping and thanks to SNAP for sorting this out fast ie TheRalph.

Cheers,

Aaron.

P.S. 47Mbs sync dn 16Mbs sync up in Fritz.

Hi Slashman,

Glad everything worked out well for you! (Seems the title of the thread is now incorrect

)

Looks like your upstream is 10344Kbps - Attainable is 15960Kbps (one day this limit might get removed hopefully!)

Thanks
TheRalph

Snap

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stevehodge

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#815140 10-May-2013 11:34

RalphFromSnap:
Looks like your upstream is 10344Kbps - Attainable is 15960Kbps (one day this limit might get removed hopefully!)

Ah, that explains it. Would be great if the upstream limit does get raised. On my 17a connection there is masses of upstream bandwidth with almost no bitloading at all.

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springheal

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#815158 10-May-2013 11:47

The topic is very misleading and ( as "theralph" rightly points out ), should be changed pronto as it sheds bad light on the provider when it's no fault of theirs.

Secondly, snap offered to have a chorus rep check out the op's line. As it was a fault on the op's premises, the cost should not be "non chargeable".

Unfortunately, too many people are very quick to blame everyone else before thinking the fault may be in their own backyard.

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#815219 10-May-2013 12:52

springheal:
Secondly, snap offered to have a chorus rep check out the op's line. As it was a fault on the op's premises, the cost should not be "non chargeable".

It depends if the customer is paying for wiring maintenance. If not the cost is on the customer.

This is proof however of why every VDSL2 conenction should be a mandatory master filter install. This should not be optional, and the sooner Chorus make this mandatory, the better it will be.

I also funamentally disagree with ISPs such as Snap allowing customers to get a VDSL2 connection without making a master filter mandatory.

RalphFromSnap

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#815252 10-May-2013 13:58

sbiddle:
springheal:
Secondly, snap offered to have a chorus rep check out the op's line. As it was a fault on the op's premises, the cost should not be "non chargeable".

It depends if the customer is paying for wiring maintenance. If not the cost is on the customer.

This is proof however of why every VDSL2 conenction should be a mandatory master filter install. This should not be optional, and the sooner Chorus make this mandatory, the better it will be.

I also funamentally disagree with ISPs such as Snap allowing customers to get a VDSL2 connection without making a master filter mandatory.

Hi Sbiddle,

In this case the line was Naked DSL, and information we had back from Chorus was that the actual physical line was damaged in the house. Chorus have fixed the line and in this case a Master Filter was not needed as there is not an active POTS service.

What we would like to see is a wiring only option, to install a filter with wiring has a large cost which can put consumers off VDSL2 - whereas a wiring only option would resolve these cases. I believe our guys are in discussions with Chorus at the moment regarding this.

However there are also cases where wiring at the end users houses is already up to a good standard, and we would not want to enforce a wiring upgrade if that is the case. in our experience a majority our users migrating to DSL get great sync speeds straight away, and if not we can always get wiring checked afterwards, rather than making it mandatory on everyone (and incurring a >$400 one off cost which may be unnecessary)

On that note for Business customers we do make it mandatory as we want it right first time 100% of the time, however we would like to give residential users the option before we enforce this on them (especially if they have arranged their own wiring options) we regularly run reports on all our users, but specifically on VDSL2, and if a VDSL2 line is showing signs of a degradation from internal wiring the customer will get a call from us! in our recent statistics, and maybe because more care is taken on VDSL2, our average VDSL2 sync rates are closer to the expected rates compared to ADSL rates, and the average sync rate is well within the 30Mbps.

But in summary we do strongly agree that internal wiring is extremely important, especially for VDSL2, for both the network and the end user, and its important that if they have POTS, that they have a filter installed (preferably a master one) and if naked that the lines are free of bridged taps.

Thanks,
TheRalph

Snap

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www.snap.net.nz

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eXDee

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#815268 10-May-2013 14:25

General question about lines, if the cabinet is the next block over, and its 400m one way, 600m the other way by road distance, then what could be a possible reason for 15dB atten which approximates to 1.08km using the 13.81db per km estimate? Is there such thing as a bridged tap for underground wiring? I assume the cable joins straight to the grey telecom post at the end of our driveway, which i know has several cable bundles inside it of varying thickness.

Line coming in to the modem is the black cable straight out of the ground, joined to some cat5e with the 3M gel splicers, rj45 into the fritzbox. All other wiring bypassed.

I know DSL has a lot of variables at play, but just curious if there's anything that would be likely causing it. The black cable coming into the house is probably about 35 years old.

sbiddle

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#815295 10-May-2013 15:11

RalphFromSnap:
Hi Sbiddle,

In this case the line was Naked DSL, and information we had back from Chorus was that the actual physical line was damaged in the house. Chorus have fixed the line and in this case a Master Filter was not needed as there is not an active POTS service.

What we would like to see is a wiring only option, to install a filter with wiring has a large cost which can put consumers off VDSL2 - whereas a wiring only option would resolve these cases. I believe our guys are in discussions with Chorus at the moment regarding this.

However there are also cases where wiring at the end users houses is already up to a good standard, and we would not want to enforce a wiring upgrade if that is the case. in our experience a majority our users migrating to DSL get great sync speeds straight away, and if not we can always get wiring checked afterwards, rather than making it mandatory on everyone (and incurring a >$400 one off cost which may be unnecessary)

On that note for Business customers we do make it mandatory as we want it right first time 100% of the time, however we would like to give residential users the option before we enforce this on them (especially if they have arranged their own wiring options) we regularly run reports on all our users, but specifically on VDSL2, and if a VDSL2 line is showing signs of a degradation from internal wiring the customer will get a call from us! in our recent statistics, and maybe because more care is taken on VDSL2, our average VDSL2 sync rates are closer to the expected rates compared to ADSL rates, and the average sync rate is well within the 30Mbps.

But in summary we do strongly agree that internal wiring is extremely important, especially for VDSL2, for both the network and the end user, and its important that if they have POTS, that they have a filter installed (preferably a master one) and if naked that the lines are free of bridged taps.

Thanks,
TheRalph

POTS on or POTS off is irrevelent, a master filter is essential for both. POTS off can't eliminate the line stubs from multiple jackpoints or mixed M/S/2 wire jacks in the typical residential premises which which is the real killer for VDSL2.

The only exception to the "master filter is essential" rule is when there is a single jack off the demarc for the modem. This is an extremely uncommon situation in a residential dwelling.

If people aren't willing to pay up front for costs maybe VDSL2 isn't for them. I don't think it's fair that the integity of the Chorus network is left wide open to potential impact of other users because people are being installed with poor quality connections, either due to crosstalk or UPBO impacting performance for VDSL2 users closer to the ISAM.

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#815313 10-May-2013 15:47

Hi, yes I agree with Steve, just because its naked does not circumvent the tap issues of the remaining house wiring. And unless the home owner isolates the socket for the modem that issue will not go away.

At 2MHz (ADSL2+) to have 2 or 3 5-10m unterminated taps has little to modest effect on performance, at 18MHz for VDSL its dramatic.

Cyril

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#815319 10-May-2013 16:08

There is little difference between "wiring only" and "wiring with master splitter". It is the same amount of work, so only difference is cost of splitter, which can be picked up for less than $30.

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Foiler

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#815325 10-May-2013 16:22

eXDee: General question about lines, if the cabinet is the next block over, and its 400m one way, 600m the other way by road distance, then what could be a possible reason for 15dB atten which approximates to 1.08km using the 13.81db per km estimate? Is there such thing as a bridged tap for underground wiring? I assume the cable joins straight to the grey telecom post at the end of our driveway, which i know has several cable bundles inside it of varying thickness.

Line coming in to the modem is the black cable straight out of the ground, joined to some cat5e with the 3M gel splicers, rj45 into the fritzbox. All other wiring bypassed.

I know DSL has a lot of variables at play, but just curious if there's anything that would be likely causing it. The black cable coming into the house is probably about 35 years old.

Bridged taps do exist in the local network, and are more often called multiples here in NZ.

Multiples do affect attenuation, but also a multiple creates reflections (echos) which the modem and dslam attempt to cancel by forward correction.

The attenuation effect of a single long multiple is 3dB due to the power-halving of the signal when it splits both ways.

In addition, if a multiple is 1/4 of a wavelength (or 1/2, 3/4 etc) long at a particular test frequency, then the attenuation effect will be markedly more than 3dB at or near that test frequency.

Loss per metre also depends dramatically on conductor size which varies in the local loop (0.4mm 0.5mm 0.63mm).

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