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johnr
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  #547648 21-Nov-2011 07:25
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No SMS was lost in the example provided by Nick,

Nick I have sent you a PM



alasta
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  #547649 21-Nov-2011 07:35
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nickbrooker:
Beside I get charged for a text message so I would have thought there was some warranty implied there. Any one know if that is the case?


I would imagine that the telcos have probably contracted out of it in their terms and conditions. 

SaltyNZ
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  #547654 21-Nov-2011 08:02
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alasta:

I would imagine that the telcos have probably contracted out of it in their terms and conditions. 


It was never in the terms and conditions. You need to pay a lot more than consumer rates before you start getting guarantees!

EDIT: And even then, you'll only get a guarantee for a target, e.g. that 99% of messages will be delivered within 60s.




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alasta
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  #547662 21-Nov-2011 08:30
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SaltyNZ:
alasta:

I would imagine that the telcos have probably contracted out of it in their terms and conditions. 


It was never in the terms and conditions. You need to pay a lot more than consumer rates before you start getting guarantees!

EDIT: And even then, you'll only get a guarantee for a target, e.g. that 99% of messages will be delivered within 60s.


The previous poster was suggesting that a guarantee was implied by the fact that they are paying for the service. In an extreme case that could result in a customer suing the telco for the undesirable consequences of missing an important text message.

However I've no doubt that you guys have covered your backsides against this sort of thing. 

johnr
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  #547667 21-Nov-2011 08:39
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alasta:
SaltyNZ:
alasta:

I would imagine that the telcos have probably contracted out of it in their terms and conditions. 


It was never in the terms and conditions. You need to pay a lot more than consumer rates before you start getting guarantees!

EDIT: And even then, you'll only get a guarantee for a target, e.g. that 99% of messages will be delivered within 60s.


The previous poster was suggesting that a guarantee was implied by the fact that they are paying for the service. In an extreme case that could result in a customer suing the telco for the undesirable consequences of missing an important text message.

However I've no doubt that you guys have covered your backsides against this sort of thing. 


So if you purchase an Airline ticket and the plane takes off is there a guarantee the plane will get to the desination?

John

alasta
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  #547698 21-Nov-2011 09:16
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johnr:
alasta: 
The previous poster was suggesting that a guarantee was implied by the fact that they are paying for the service. In an extreme case that could result in a customer suing the telco for the undesirable consequences of missing an important text message.

However I've no doubt that you guys have covered your backsides against this sort of thing. 


So if you purchase an Airline ticket and the plane takes off is there a guarantee the plane will get to the desination?


It depends on the terms of the contract entered into at the time of purchasing the ticket, but it's actually very common for massive liabilities to arise as a result of aviation disasters. 

DonGould
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  #547711 21-Nov-2011 09:35
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nickbrooker:
> Doesn't everybody rely on good communication systems? 

> SMS delivery is not guaranteed. 

> I wouldn't expect a UDP datagram to reach it's destination everytime either. 

Two important differences.  I'm not familiar with GSM but I expect there is a lot more control on an SMS than best effort like UDP.  UDP is generally for transient data that is no longer useful if it get there a second late.

Beside I get charged for a text message so I would have thought there was some warranty implied there. Any one know if that is the case?

Nick


We did have this conversation earlier in the year.

The SMS protocol has message ack features in it.  I used the features in the Australian network over a decade ago.

However, I think it was Johnr that pointed out that the ack features had been long since turned off because of the network load.

The focus is on giving kids thousands of texts to use, not reliable telecommunications.

Personally I think this focus is wrong.  But that is the way it is in New Zealand and we have to either accept it or lobby government for change - good luck with the latter.






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SaltyNZ
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  #547730 21-Nov-2011 10:09
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DonGould:

The SMS protocol has message ack features in it.  I used the features in the Australian network over a decade ago.



They're turned off for load reasons and also because they are misleading. If you use the delivery receipt feature and you send a message to a subscriber on another network it will immediately tell you the message was delivered. This is in fact not correct; it has merely made it from the sender's carrier's SMSC to the sender's carrier's SMS gateway (or possibly, in the case of Telecom, to the recipient's carrier's SMS gateway, since they seem to use SMSCs only, no gateways).

In any case it does not tell you that the message actually arrived on someone's handset all the time, so it's far better to turn it off altogether.




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DonGould
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  #547731 21-Nov-2011 10:16
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SaltyNZ: In any case it does not tell you that the message actually arrived on someone's handset all the time, so it's far better to turn it off altogether.


I still disagree, but you are starting to persuade me.

On the Optus network it used to tell me when the message was not delivered or undeliverable.  That is the feature I found useful.

What you are convincing me of is that we need regulation in this space as well to have defined agreement on protocol implementation and some consumer assurances.

This attitude of 'oh it's a bit hard because $EndlessRandomTechnicalBlar' is not ok. 

I would sooner pay $10 for 100 text messages and have a quality service than $10 for 2500 and not have them land when I actually need them there.

Do we have a coms network in New Zealand as a toy for kids or for reliable telecommunications?






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Talkiet
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  #547740 21-Nov-2011 10:25
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DonGould: [snip]
I would sooner pay $10 for 100 text messages and have a quality service than $10 for 2500 and not have them land when I actually need them there.

Do we have a coms network in New Zealand as a toy for kids or for reliable telecommunications?


Calling is reliable. TXTs are mostly used as a toy by kids.

This comment in no way is meant to belittle the people using TXT as an important form of communication and I know several deaf people who rely on it - but they are not the vast majority. The vast majority do this...

person A: Whatcha doin?

Person B: Nuttin

Person A: LOL. me2

Person B: eggs4lunch

Person A: LOL. pies

Person B: MmmmEGGS

Clearly this is a cut and paste from a real conversation so I have stripped any identifying material :-)

Cheers - N







Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


oxnsox
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  #547754 21-Nov-2011 10:40
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@Don. So what has happened, as in a change in your(anyones) mindset that has implied a text message is delivered , immediately, automatically and reliably???

We've all learnt that a communication directly via voice is the next best thing to getting a message across in person (face-to-face). Most of us grew up with postal-mail, where there was some expectation of delays... or even non delivery. And like emails and texts and even (dare I say IM) it's a written word service.

The face that we choose to use a medium that requires translation to another medium (words-to-text) implies that it won't be instant in any way??

To expect it to be something that it is not......

coffeebaron
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  #547768 21-Nov-2011 11:05
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johnr:
alasta:
SaltyNZ:
alasta:

I would imagine that the telcos have probably contracted out of it in their terms and conditions. 


It was never in the terms and conditions. You need to pay a lot more than consumer rates before you start getting guarantees!

EDIT: And even then, you'll only get a guarantee for a target, e.g. that 99% of messages will be delivered within 60s.


The previous poster was suggesting that a guarantee was implied by the fact that they are paying for the service. In an extreme case that could result in a customer suing the telco for the undesirable consequences of missing an important text message.

However I've no doubt that you guys have covered your backsides against this sort of thing. 


So if you purchase an Airline ticket and the plane takes off is there a guarantee the plane will get to the desination?

John

I'd probably use the example of a 50c stamp to post a letter. 99.?% it will get there, but we all know the odd one will go astray. You can take your issue up with NZ Post if that happens, and they'll try and track it down, they may even refund your 50c.

Same here, the odd SMS may go astray, the telco can try and see what went wrong, and they may even credit your 20c or credit back to your text bundle

Why do so many people demand 100% perfection these days? And want to sue that backsides when something little goes wrong?
    
    




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